Weird Brady Moment

Well thank goodness homophobia in America is a thing of the past then, right?

Can you imagine the day when Christianity will be treated the same way? Ah, 3030 can’t come fast enough.

That’s just sad.

Brady Bunch = Thinly veiled propaganda

Of course it has lots of company.

I’m not so sure it pained him on any level. How hard would it have been to take that zinger out of the script?Boys wanting to do girl stuff is a staple of sitcoms. One popular gag is the little boy that wants to be a witch or something else vaguely girly for halloween and how the parents argue over whether it is ok. Moms usually say “Let him express himself” and the Dads assume the butch asshole “He’ll get beat up! (and expose me as a bad Dad for having a girly son!)” routine.Remember, it’s still ok to hate gays. It’s still ok to fire gays for being gay. It’s still ok beat gays to a pulp then plead self-defense “because the big bad fairy was going to rape me.” It’s still ok kick gays out of the military just for being gay.And it’s still ok to invite a man to give the inaugural invocation that believes gays shouldn’t marry and will go to hell if they don’t give up their gay ways.Many of my people just accept things as the way things are. The rest of us, well, we’re pretty fucking pissed off about it.

Do all homosexuals like playing with dolls?

I dunno, “Alaska,” do all Alaskans like shooting wolves from helicopters? And running basement meth labs? And dropping out of school to have babies at 16 years old? Are all Alaskans ugly women in flannel?

>>Do all homosexuals like playing with dolls?No, but the joke was clearly a boys + dolls = the gay = the crazy.

Ha, there’s quite a few of them.But seriously, does acting “feminine” necessarily equate to gay? And do all — or most — gays act feminine, or is that just a stereotype? I really don’t know.I guess I just don’t understand why playing with dolls or wearing pink is considered “girly”. Is that something we can let die out too?

But seriously, does acting “feminine” necessarily equate to gay? And do all — or most — gays act feminine, or is that just a stereotype? I really don’t know.

Alaska, I’m assuming you’re asking because of non exposure to homosexuality in your region or in your lifetime. The answers are no and no, it’s a stereotype. Yes, some homoesexual males come across as “feminine” but some don’t. I’m no expert but in my line of work, I have quite a few gay acquaintances and friends.

If any openly gay people that frequent this site want to take on what I believe is a serious question, I think it would be a great thing to enlighten some of us.

@Alaska – Indeed. Remember when we were kids and we loved to play with Star Wars figures and that was sometimes considered playing with dolls?There’s another equation also. Gay = Feminine = Weak. Well maybe that’s not an equation. I’m pretty bad at math, but to answer your question “are all gays or most of them feminine or is it just a stereotype,” let’s just say I know gay men that could bring you home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never ever let your forget they’re the man.

Yes, that’s my case Broadway Carl. I’ve known a few homosexuals up here, but haven’t known any well enough to spend much time with them. I suspect I might know a few more, but they’re in the closet because of the prejudice they’d experience if they came out.There was one kid in school that came out. Overnight, his clothes went from blue jeans and t-shirts like most of the kids, to extremely flamboyant and sparkly, and his hair went pink and his voice went up like 3 octaves. I never understood why all that was necessary, but it wasn’t my business either.

can i just say i as a straight female i am kinda taking offense to some of these comments!i understand lack of exposure to gay people and trying to gain knowledge but the underlying problem i see is that gay (i assume you all are talking about men) are seen as “feminine” which equals “girly” which equals FEMALE!why is it such a slam to call a gay men feminine? because many men still think females are the weaker sex! i don’t think you guys even realize you are doing this so i can’t really fault you but it is something you really should become aware of.

by the way, google bear community…i love all my gays but there is a special place in my heart for my bears!

As someone who’s played with dolls action figures up until, I dunno, I put them down to type this, I in no way, shape or form turned out “feminine.”*sips latte*But, no, in all seriousness, I really want to believe we’ve reached a point in society where just basic observances of children teaches us they will play with ANYTHING. I have a son with lots of female cousins, so when he picks up a Barbie doll my expected reaction from other family members is to say “Holy shit, THE GAY!” But, c’mon.First, two minutes earlier he was playing with the vacuum cleaner and before that my shoe. Kids love random crap!Second, if he’s gay, it’s GENETIC. I roomed with a gay ballerina and in my conservations with him and his friends, they all recall a specific moment in their childhood where they went “Hmm. Definitely boys.” And you know what that’s life and it’s cool. Also, by pure Republican beliefs, they should be allowed to pursue their happiness without “big government” saying “Sorry, you’re bedroom stuff is illegal.” But that’s me and my crazy use of logic. Damn that stuff.

I loves me some Alaska(the state). Gays are in the closet where they belong. If they do come out they are all feminine gay. I bet there are a lot of happy evangelical pastors in Alaska if all THE GAY is feminine.

Joe, that made absolutely no sense. Put down the bong when you type. I say this with love.

I dont think anyone could call a bear feminine. How about Thom of Finland? as butch as butch can be. also… quite hot if you are into leather clad, man on man action.

Sorry that was my Pee-Nay-Nay typing for me again. Goddamn it!*sips latte* You are no brother of mine.

Bear? Those are some big dudes that can do whatever the hell they want. I dare Rick Warren to confront one of those guys and judge them. My money is that Rick “Bear” Warren is a card carrying member of the club.

Joe, you’re on your own with that one.I mean, I understand you’re applying the Ted Haggard theorem, but calling Rick Warren secretly gay is pretty much the antithesis of confronting homophobia in society. Sure, you’re trying to insinuate a probable underlying hypocrisy, but again: Bong, pe-nay-nay -> coffee table.

If I have learned anything in my lifetime it is that if you are a public outspoken critic of something you are doing that something. When the evidence comes out remember I called it first. I am guessing the evidence is in Jane’s basement.

Then I really need to stop criticizing people who watch The Hills. And not just because OMG Lauren and Heidi made up!And, on that note, I’m going to Starbucks to *sip latte* and read Clint Eastwood’s Esquire interview where he calls us “a generation of pussies.” No joke.

Oh i eagerly await the Warren sex scandal. hookers, bathroom stall foot taping, church sexretary, gay, straight whatever. those evangential types cant seem keep it in their pants.you just know it will happen…

Saying that boys who play with dolls grow up to be gay isn’t much different than the stereotyping that goes on every day in our society:Blonde = dumbWoman = bad driverHispanic = 4 families living in a 2 bedroom houseMiddle name of Hussein = crazy scary terroristSure, there are some boys who play with dolls who are gay. And there are plenty who aren’t. Just as all lesbians are not stocky women who have short hair, not all gay men wear pink and speak in a higher octave. In fact, it can be a total bummer when you go out to a bar and see a totally hot guy, only to realize after talking to him for a bit that he’s far more interested in the hot male bartender than you. It’s just really unfortunate that our society stereotypes and classifies people based upon their physical appearances and mannerisms. Because none of them are true.

gyspysoul,I hope my comments have offended you. I was basically trying to ask the same thing you just mentioned.I wasn’t trying to make feminine sound negative. I was just wondering why it had to be tied in with homosexual males.

@gypysoul – It is, and always has been, emasculating to call a man “feminine.” In ancient Rome, it was perfectly fine for a man to have an affair with another man or woman outside his marriage, but if he was “in love” with or the passive partner of the other, that was considered feminine and therefore weak. Because, in good ol ancient times, (5000 B.C. – Present), women were considered the weaker vessels.I even chide my gay friends if they use the word “slut” to describe a guy that has a lot of anonymous sex. It perpetuates two stereotypes. We all remember how we first used the word slut back in middle/high school– to describe a girl that was reputed to have had sex with more than a few guys. For girls, this is supposed to be damaging. For guys, it was just more notches in their belts. To use the phrase to describe gay men that have a lot of sex, again this ascribes to us the feminine, or weaker, role. We’re not real men, we’re “bitches.”Both are a load of bullshit. If you are having a lot of sex, it just means you’re good at it.

oh shit…I meant *NOT offended you.

I agree Kat.That is way I have removed my eyeballs. Actually my doctor recommended it after seeing Amy Whinehouse in bikini.

nano, i understand you are “on my side” but comments like this >>let’s just say I know gay men that could bring you home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never ever let your forget they’re the man.

weird! don’t know where the rest of my sentence went….nano, i understand you are “on my side” but comments like this >>let’s just say I know gay men that could bring you home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never ever let your forget they’re the man perpetuate the underlying issue.

I understand what you’re saying gypsy. I was a bit campy, but it’s the way of my people

Ok I’m bowing out to go see The Tale of Despereaux. When I come back this post better be up to 60 comments.

Also, before I exit, maybe this is the crux of the scene from The Brady Bunch:For women to assume traditionally male dominated roles, it is considered empowering. However, for males to assume traditionally female dominated roles it is considered demeaning or emasculating.Discuss.

There’s a similar feeling episode of Leave It To Beaver wherein the gist is that Beav befriends a kid who has poor parents, and his dad is a garbageman.June is scandalized and Ward is concerned. You’d think the upshot of the episode would be, “And as it turns out, they’re lovely people, and weren’t we wrong to make such judgements?”You’d be wrong. The episode, as I remember, in any case, ends with the realization that they don’t have enough in common to really be friends; the things which separate them are greater than the things which do not. It ends with the sort of moral that while there may be nice people out there, stick to your own.

From the All-Knowing Wiki:“Ward has a bachelor uncle named Billy who is a world traveler. June finds Billy somewhat untrustworthy, as he tends to fill the boys’ heads with thoughts of irresponsible behavior and lifestyles. June sometimes places Ward in a position where he is forced to “explain” or apologize for his Uncle Billy.”Gay. Billy was gay. Well maybe not, but he was definitely someone that wasn’t behaving as he was supposed to. You know, having a white collar job, a wife plus two kids and not ever talking to those fucking lower class garbagemen.Also, Wow, I never knew what a bitch June was…

Not entirely with you on this one, Nano. Almost always, when a woman aspires to break into male roles, whether they are blue collar or white, she is greeted with derisiveness and harassment. Men, who enter ‘female’ jobs, such as nursing are apt to get the same treatment.If you want to talk about appearances, how about the “lipstick lesbian” phenomena. Hot, right guys? But a butch in a man’s suit is itching for a fight.The Minx

>>>you just know it will happen…Jenny- I agree. I mean Warren’s natural inclination is to have sex with every beautiful woman that walks by so he’s bound to slip up eventually. I’m sure it’ll be perfectly innocent. He’ll be walking along the street, just whistlin’ dixie, trip over his untied shoelace and fall into a prostitute.

i have always felt really weird for not having seen a single episode of leave it to beaver, now i know it’s for the best!i agree with minx, men in traditionally female occupations not only are welcomed they usually get more respect and advancement in less time. also, the majority of the disrespect they do get come from the same gay bashing male population as mentioned above.a female not only has to works twice as hard to get into a typical male position but once she gets there she has to deal with the “boys only” politics and clientele questioning her abilities.as an owner of multiple small businesses (one which i hope will be on a world scale one day-i’ll give GDAB’ers a shout out!) men do not take females serious and when that seriousness is asserted you are immediately called a bitch, ball buster, or simply ignored. don’t even get me started on the treatment i receive remodeling houses!!!

OK. I’m going to swoop in and have the overly-judgmental comment for the thread. Apologies in advance.I think we are rather quick to rush to judgement. I may be wrong, but Alaska seemed from the start to be asking a sincere question, and I’m very glad that s/he stuck it out to get the question asked in a way that others would actually answer, instead of sniping (it seemed that way to me, and yes, I’m rushing to judgment!) I also think that we can safely be opposed to Rick Warren’s opinions, without wishing him to have any sex scandals in his closet or in his future. I mean – really? Your opinions don’t stand up on their own without the Rick Warren Scandal (TM)? Do you need a scandal to validate your position?Joe – I have to admit to being rather hurt at your persistent crusade against Christianity, since not all Christians are Rick Warren, or the like. But in any event, if it’s any consolation, by 3030, the Baha’i Faith will be no more, according to the Baha’i Faith’s teachings the next prophet comes in about 1000 years (from 1863 or from 1844, I’m never sure which). So there’ll be something entirely new at least by 3030, and hopefully by then, if there are any Christians, they will be very different from the Christians we know today. Again, so says the Baha’i Faith. So – there’s hope. I recommend cryonic freeze so you can come back and see what it’s like at that time.OK. I’m off my soapbox. Sorry for the judgmentalism. Honestly couldn’t resist.QT

Yeah, my question was sincere. I guess I was just wondering if people believed there was any truth to the stereotypes. Since I don’t know many homosexuals, aside from online, I haven’t had a chance to make an opinion either way.I understand there is some “gay culture” aspect to some of it. For example, people marching around in the Pride parades dressed up in wild costumes — I saw a giant penis and a giant vagina once — but I’m not so sure those same people dress like that all the time. Maybe that kind of protest adds to the stereotype.

QT,I felt bad when I wrote,”Christianity” it is a broad stroke like,”You People” for that I apologize.Maybe Evangelical would have been better?I am not wishing a homosexual incident with Rick Warren I am prophesying it.GItheGREATjoe.

for the record, i wasn’t targeting a specific person in my comments (except nano and we have kumbaya’ed already) i was just stating a general “this bothers me” kinda thing.

Wow, I had a feeling this might open up a can of worms, but man! Or should I say wo-man!

Gypsy, perhaps “feminine” was the incorrect word. Effeminate maybe? Or flamboyantly effeminate? There was no suggestion of using the word “feminine” as weaker. I think effeminate is the correct word.

ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate   /adj. [adj. i-fem-uh-nit; v. i-fem-uh-neyt] adjective, verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing.–adjective

1. (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy.

And I seriously believe that there are way too many people who aren’t as exposed to LGBT as we’d like to think. Hell, over the holiday my wife and I were talking about the manager of our dog day care facility, who happens to be gay but is just an oddball, eccentric if you will, regardless of his sexuality. We relayed our dealings with him to my cousin and her husband. Her husband happened to know him and said, “Well, you know he’s gay.” And he lives in NEW YORK!!!

My point is, you can have people ask sincere questions and still phrase them incorrectly if you’re sensitive to that sort of thing, and they don’t even realize their phrasing may be offensive. Add in the feminism angle and now everyone’s walking on eggshells.

There was no offense intended in using the “wrong” word. And if someone is opening up and trying to understand something they don’t know about and they’re not exposed to, it’s not conducive to get all up in their grill for misusing a word to get their question across; it’s only going to inhibit them from trying to learn.

Alaska- The major rule is: no giant penis costumes after Labor Day.(Not trying to be judgy, just…going for the joke)

Alaska – your experience mirrors mine. I wish someone would explain flamers to me. I honestly don’t get it – and I’m reasonably certain that it isn’t a prerequisite for gayness.Joe – no worries. I knew what you meant, I just am quite sensitive on this issue. For one, I think that “the left” gets the rap for insensitivity (at minimum) against religious folk, and for the most part, I think it’s deserved. I appreciate that Obama takes a different approach. For another, I really do think that it’s counterproductive. Lee and I are largely of one mind on this one. I am a firm believer in catching bees with honey. QT

QT,I am willing to bet that both you and Lee weren’t force feed ever word out of James Dobson’s or Rick Warren’s mouth for 25 plus years. The flames of my hatred come from a preacher father that hates the military and can’t forgive his son for getting a divorce after multiple deployments to Iraq. If you can fix that I will calm down a little on the Rick Warren bashing.

like i stated, i don’t fault someone for lack of knowledge and the willingness to learn. but if i had not mentioned the underlying meaning of many gay zingers would you guys have seen it as equating women with being weak?

I had to scroll way, way back up to try to find Alaska’s original question– from my experience, and Milwaukee is not exactly the epicenter of cool (Of course, I don’t mean Fonzie!!), Gay men & women are all over the scale, butch to swish.Another thing, and I wish that I could find the cite for this, in much earlier times PINK was for boys and BLUE for girls–it’s just fashion, and fashion changes.The Minx

Alaska, perhaps one way to look at this is to examine other stereotypes.For example, in the US there are St. Patrick’s Day parade to celebrate Irish heritage. So, on St. Paddy’s Day, everyone pulls out their green underwear and “Kiss Me, I’m Irish” pins, and goes out and gets drunk. Because the stereotype is that Irish people are all a bunch of redheaded, green eyed, Guinness-swilling drunks. Right?Sure, some Irishmen (and women) fall into that stereotype, just as some gay men fall into the effeminate, mincing, nailpolish-wearing stereotype. But just as not all Irishmen are drunks, not all gay men fall into their stereotype. I think it’s just important to not stereotype at all. And realize that society loves to categorize, but we are all far to complex to smush into little boxes where we are “supposed” to be.I have gay male friends who are “flamers” and those who you’d never dream in a million years are gay. One of my dearest friends is a lesbian who is so deliciously skinny, blonde, and beautiful that men fall at her feet whenever we go out.I’m glad that you are asking these questions. The discussion is good.

Joe – honest – I have my own issues with my dad, and he’s dead now. I understand how those kinds of things can make you bitter.I can even share some personal experiences about evangelical nuttery that almost scarred me religiously for life. Weird scary stuff. And, stuff that could make me hate Christianity with a passion – except that I was there, and therefore I have a lot of compassion even for the nuttiest of beliefs – or, maybe not the beliefs, but the people that believe them. And I could talk a lot about how embedded in the wackiness are the seeds of sanity – and how compassionate people can make a difference in how people approach the world.It may not be possible for your Dad, Joe… but everyone isn’t your dad. And of course – it’s possible that even your dad can think differently. It’s possible.QT

QT,I know you aren’t old enough but you are now my new mother. I love you.If more evangelicals thought like you I could soften my position a little. I will try to keep my hatred toned down.

but if i had not mentioned the underlying meaning of many gay zingers would you guys have seen it as equating women with being weak?

@ Gypsy – no, because I don’t equate weakness with femininity or femininity with weakness.

@ Gypsy – …But I’m just speaking for myself.

But just as not all Irishmen are drunks, not all gay men fall into their stereotype.

Kat, this is a new concept for me. I’ve never met an Irishman who wasn’t a drunk.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Joe }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}Nope. Sure I’m not old enough… but I accept. QT

Carlos!! You sooooo aren’t helping here!!!

and yeah, I in no way meant to use the word feminine as derogatory or inferior.I appreciate the discussion though. A lot of times, people that don’t have experience with different lifestyles harbor fear which leads to bigotry.I don’t have experience around many homosexuals and my confusion lies closer to me not being able to understand what’s to fear or hate. To me the difference between a heterosexual and a homosexual is no more significant than someone that favors the color blue over the color red.//Blue is better though.

Well, not to belittle the ongoing discussion (which is great) or to try to deny Bob’s original point (which is right on), but I have a very expensive doll house sitting in my basement. I bought it for my daughter when she was probably 8 years old, thinking she would love it. After going throught the motions to try to please Mom and Dad, she made it clear to us that SHE thought anyone who played with these things should see a shrink. It’s all just so “pretend”, you know? The doll house is still there after 12 years or so, completely unused if you know anyone who wants it.So, while I know the stupid Brady Bunch show was strongly suggesting something different, there are alternate interpretations that are legitimate.

And since I’m sharing and I’m going to get blasted anyway, I love St. Patricks day as an excuse to get stupid and drunk. My wife and I met on St. Patricks day in an Irish bar in NYC 25 years ago. She’s Italian, I’m Swedish. We celebrate St. Paddy’s day every year.

*sigh* I give up.

Don’t give up, Kat. Maybe you can defend the “wilding” stereotype during the Puerto Rican Day Parade. I still don’t understand why some of these girls decide it’s okay to make a bikini out of the Puerto Rican flag… (This is coming from a Puerto Rican, by the way.)

Truly closeted gays jump at the chance to malign the gay. They think it provides them additional distance/cover.

I think the Brady Bunch example is a fine one – on several levels – of how far we’ve come in a relatively very short time.Obviously, things are perfect but just as obviously they are a damn site better then they were a few decades ago. And more importantly, the trend lines are obvious and undeniable…That’s what strikes fear in some – the multi-racial, less uptight sexually, more tech savvy, overwhelmingly Democratic future generation.

Wow I’m psyched. Who knew an ancient episode of the Brady Bunch would have generated so much discussion. A good discussion, too.

“just as obviously they are a damn site better then they were a few decades ago”really you think so? it was only 10 years ago Matthew Shepard was killed and a lesbian was gang raped in Richmond CA for being gay this last month.which will keep happening as long as its accepted to treat gay people as somehow different from the rest of society.

Jenny: He didn’t say everything’s perfect for gays, he said things are better. And they are; gay men and women are no longer ROUTINELY kicked out of their homes for being gay, it’s no longer considered a mental disorder, and it’s no longer illegal.You can appreciate how far we’ve come without losing sight of how far we have to go.

Yep, what Theo said. I think both the improvement and the trajectory of things are obvious. I don’t anticipate a world completely devoid of hate or stupidity.

“really you think so? it was only 10 years ago Matthew Shepard was killed and a lesbian was gang raped in Richmond CA for being gay this last month.It’s happened many times in the 10 years since Matthew Shepard. Theo is right, though, we’ve come a long way but still our society has a long way to go. It does seem that every time we are near another victory, we are handed a stunning defeat. We just have to keep pushing back and not allow the stereotypes or hatred to continue. Sometimes that happens in the form of blogotubing, or in the form of street protests, but we have to push back or the other side will gain ground in their effort to marginalize us.@Alan“After going throught the motions to try to please Mom and Dad, she made it clear to us that SHE thought anyone who played with these things should see a shrink. It’s all just so “pretend”, you know?” Oh that’s just classic! I can almost see the “you people are crazy” look on her face.

I agree that we have come a long way. Obviously a show like the brady bunch would never whisper the G word, subsequent shows treated the subject like some great revelation. Now, I think, gayness is treated pretty casually on television. I think an individual’s reaction to gay culture is a reflection of their own hangups about the subject. Granted, I don’t know many gays, and if I saw a guy with pink hair, nailpolish, and speaking in a deliberate affected way, I might have a particular reaction to that person. Someone else might react with strong repulsion for that person. HANGUPS. When I was growing up, my mother told me that she would get into yelling matches with my uncles, who were watching me play, because they thought I, a 3 or 4 year old, was acting gay! Growing up, the kids I played with would always run each other down because the hat someone was wearing looked “gay”, or the bike you were riding looked “queer”. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem all that strange that people react to gays in relation to the most outragous behaviors that a gay person might exhibit.

And then we go back to the initial question that Alaska was asking.

Anyone remember that episode where the boys were pissed that Marcia wanted to join Greg’s Boy Scout Troop, so in retaliation they made Peter join Marcia’s Sunflower(?) Girls troop. If memory serves me, it required him to wear a dress and go door to door selling cookies with some weird jingle about how girlish he was or something. If I’m remembering it right, it was wrong on many levels because it made out Peter to be a freak and Marcia to be perseverent in the ridicule she was receiving.

….and that’s enough of my Brady Bunch knowledge.

if the mantra is, its so much better then it was 30 years ago or that “we’ve come a long way” i guess it would depend on your personal definition of “long way”i dont think its a long way when lesbians are getting gang raped for having a rainbow stickers on their cars..

Yeah, I’m not sure we all use the same unit of measurement.

About Alaska’s question: I guess it is a function of your experience with the group in question. Similar questions might include-Do all Asians know martial arts and excel at math/science, or is it just a stereotype?Do all African Americans love hip-hop/sports/thug life, or is it just a stereotype?Are all old people curmudgeonly/absent-minded bad drivers, or is it just a stereotype?We all early on live within a certain sphere of experience to which we allow only those things that we think we might understand or like. At some point, we broaden the sphere and therefore our experience. We do it through travel, education, or simply by saying hello to new neighbors.Alaska’s experience with gays has been limited and the one’s he knows about perhaps remind him of the traditional stereotype. My experience has been much, much greater (and nakeder) so the gay men and women I know run a much broader range of personalities.Early on, however, this wasn’t the case for me. I had no gay friends when I came out and coming to Denver introduced me to my first gay pride parade. It was right after the Supreme Court had struck down Amendment 2 (to Colorado’s State Constitution, Romer v. Evans) and the parade was huge. I didn’t know there were that many gay people, much less that many in one place. My reaction to the revelry was different that you might think. Why did these guys have to walk around in chaps with their asses hanging out? What’s with all the super-tight short shorts in those horrible colors? Why do they have to behave that way? Why can’t they just walk around like everyone else?You know, like normal people.After a year here, though, I let go of those hangups and just let people be people. I mean, we use the Rainbow as our symbol for a reason. We’re all different. And we’re all one under the Rainbow.And we will kick your asses without smearing our mascara.

Jenny – I feel like if you look for individual examples like you mention, you’ll always find them. What would constitute progress to you? No hate crimes? Well, then humanity hasn’t improved at all, ever…..today is the same as slavery, women not having the right to vote, and jail for being gay. I’m just not sure.

Equal rights for gay people would be progress.