Pro-Life

FREE SPEECH DICTATOR!!!caged animals is a perfect analogy.

An idiotic statement for sure, but this was a blatant violation of the First Amendment

Bob,I’m partially anti-choice (I believe certain cases warrant abortion).Your words on this topic are rather insulting. Barney Frank is the last person I would be quoting on this issue. Chip Harrison does not represent most of the anti-abortion crowd.And let’s call it what it is, and stop using euphemisms. It’s abortion, not choice. It’s a tragedy even if the choice is the right of the woman, as is the law in our country. It’s not choice, it’s not preferral, it’s not an “alternative”.The biggest problem with this one issue in our nation is the words used to describe it. You call it choice, I call it abortion. You call it an alternative, I call the alternative to life “death”. There’s no escaping that fact, Bob, regardless of what friendly word you try to use for it, someone won’t be born, and that someone would have been someone had you allowed natural processes to occur.That’s not just science, Bob, that’s an undeniable fact. Sugarcoat it any way you want, but PEOPLE are not being born because of this law.I witnessed my daughter’s birth. I have held countless infants and children. I’ve yet to meet the one who I wanted to kill. I’ve yet to meet an adult who could hold a serious conversation about abortion while holding a baby.I understand all the arguments, you know; like the incest cases, and the life of the mother being threatened, as well as others.But there’s one issue that people never talk about. What effect does abortion have on human evolution? The Right can’t talk about that, because most don’t believe in evolution. But I CAN talk about it, and I want an answer. Who here is smart enough to tell me what ramifications the use of abortion to control populations and root out undesirable social consequences has on the bigger picture? Why is this question not being addressed? Because it’s not a serious question? When the odds of evolution are so risky, what question could be bigger than this?

Jesus, PPP. I don’t think ANYBODY advocates abortion. Nobody *I* know (including myself) thinks it’s a good thing and encourages women to run out and have one. We advocate a woman’s CHOICE.Who are you to dictate what another human being does with her body? It isn’t yours or anyone else’s business. If you believe in God (I’m an atheist so this doesn’t apply to me) it’s between that individual and her maker. God wouldn’t need you or anyone else like you to do his work for him. According to most religions, that person will face their judgement.On a bit of a more harsh note, since you brought it up, I can give you an idea of some effects abortion has on human evolution. Less unwanted children to seep into “the system” and have their basic human rights to food, shelter and healthcare ripped away by Republicans screaming “SOCIALISM!” and “GODAMN IT! PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR OWN BOOTSTRAPS!”. Less children homeless or sent to homes to live with people who could care less about them. Don’t believe me? Do a search on the percentage of homeless school children in our public school system right now. I think you’ll be shocked.Republicans want them born. Then they do everything in their power to kill them.

ppp, the only thing that springs to mind is the superpredator theory. Stephen Levitt did some facsinating work on it. I can whip out some excerpts when I get home.

@PPP: I don’t understand how you can be for abortionin certain situations if you believe having an abortion is ending a life. If I was the victim of incest, got pregnant, gave birth to that child, and then six months later couldn’t handle seeing that child every, would it be all right with you if I killed it? It wouldn’t be all right with me, but I’m not the one who thinks a fetus is the same as person. If you do (and it seems you do, please correct me if I’m wrong), then would you support that? Would you support me killing my child if I needed a new heart, or a new liver? After all, my life is at stake–my health is in danger.I am strongly, almost rabidly pro-choice. But the anti-choice people I have the most respect for are the ones who are against abortion no matter what. That, to me, is at least an argument you can back up. I’m having a more difficult time understanding yours, so I am honestly asking you to explain. Is it that it’s not a life in the instances of incest? Or that it is a life, but then it’s okay to end it?

Alan4s: To answer your question, the impact of abortion on human evolution is not being addressed because it’s a nonsense question.____________________________________________I happened to think so too, Alan4s. So I gave it a nonsense answer in my last post.

Alan4s,Asking the evolution question is nothing like saying we shouldn’t cure diseases because of evolution, but I understand the tactic. You think my question is silly. I think you say that because you have absolutely no way of backing your position up scientifically. And, because you also believe in evolution, which we state is a scientific fact, you’re sort of backed into a corner.Here’s my answer to the disease issue. We attempt to cure disease after the fact, which does not alter evolutionary course in the long run. To date, we do not prevent disease prior to birth that I know of, save… for abortion. If we were to attempt to alter the course of evolution by ridding the genome structure of anything WE opined as harmful, my fear is we would do more damage than good.Rid the world of cancer, and what occurs? Besides the good we can see, what can’t we see?

PPP: I did ask you to give your opinion on how abortion affects evolution. You don’t seem to be able to give any answer.

Lets get back on track her kids. This post wasn’t about a debate on abortion. It was about the privilege of free speech.If you think the Secret Service taking a sign away from a voter and still allowing them to attend a political event is a violation of free speech than you were sleeping the last 8 years. George Bush wouldn’t allow protesters within viewing distance of his motorcade. Any opposition had to stand outside his events in basically a cage. Our former dictator couldn’t stomach anyone that was against his ideology. President Obama welcomes the opposition and tries to form some kind of dialogue with people that HATE THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN.

I couldn’t agree more GI! I don’t feel this was a violation of free speech at all. The true meaning of the sign was questionable so they had to do it.By the way, sorry everyone for helping to take the discussion off topic. I just can’t help myself when I read comments like PPP’s comment in this thread.

PPP, I’m not sure I understand you on the disease thing. I think your point is that abortion could lead to selective aborting pregnancies for health (and maybe more superficial reasons,) thus changing evolution.We are already changing evolution, though, by prolonging life. For example, by treating cystic fibrosis, we prolong life to the point where cf patients can marry and have offspring, thus keeping that allele (gene) in the gene pool. Otherwise, diseases that are created by solely the recessive genes have a tendency to leave the gene pool, unless they arise again my mutation or chance.Am I missing your point?

That is very true GI.Thank you for helping decrease my blood pressure.

Adding: And if you can’t, then have a vasectomy, wear a rubber also, and don’t bitch about sex ed or access to birth control, free prenatal and postnatal health care, free day care, welfare, etc etc etc.

By the way jane & JM: I am a woman. Just wanted to make that known. )

gypsy: I think maybe GI just doesn’t want the orginial post topic to get lost. I feel partially responsible for responding to PPP’s orginal comment to Bob. I flew off the handle a bit. Okay, make that a lot.

apology will only be accepted over the phone gi! you know you’re always my hommie…

PPP -Your notion of the impact of the medical profession on human evolution is flawed.

Here’s my answer to the disease issue. We attempt to cure disease after the fact, which does not alter evolutionary course in the long run. To date, we do not prevent disease prior to birth that I know of, save… for abortion.

I have type 1 diabetes. This is an autoimmune disease caused by a genetic flaw and an unknown immune system trigger. A century ago, I would have died within 4 years of being diagnosed with this disease. In this time, I was able to father 2 daughters who may or may not have the genetic flaw to pass on to their children. This evolution override is made possible by insulin curtesy of medical science.The infant mortality has plummeted from what it was 200 years ago, or even 100 years ago. Their is little evidence that evolution applies to humans any more.I am pro-choice, but I consider abortion to be an, err…, abortion. Abortion is a failure and should not be necessary. However, reality can’t be ignored.

sammy, troll is a loose term. Anyone can be a troll. Watch.”’I think that a woman needs to be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant.”’That statement just classified me as a troll for the remainder of this thread.So have at it.

PPP wrote:>>>Your words on this topic are rather insulting.I insulted you?Yeah, that’s a shame.

Also, we’re not really off topic with the abortion debate. Just in case people wanted to continue it or PPP wanted to answer my questions. I mean, the post is titled Pro Lifers…

But if I say “dude, let’s blog up the White House” I will be in jail. Those darn terrorist bloggers!

Gypsy,Sorry it took so long to get back. I actually had a client to see! That’s a rare thing these days.Regarding what I said about curing disease and ridding the human race of anything harmful, the downfalls I don’t, or can’t see are the ones that worry me.Some diseases are necessary. Others may not be. Anyone here smart enough to figure out which ones those are? Not me.What kind of downfalls could occur? Having been teased by Alan about planting a scary idea, I now ride the odds of being called a fearmonger. But I’ll bite.It’s not about fearmongering, it’s about common sense. You don’t fuck with most things you can’t control, and you cannot control that which you do not understand. The human race does not understand the implications of abortion on evolution; we don’t even know if it has an impact, because we don’t ENOUGH to know if it does. We can map the human genome. We can study it, but we are on like page eight of a ten billion page book.And here, I have people telling me I’m crazy for talking about this. Do you know what will happen, Gypsy?To answer the question right now, people are taking short cuts. One said that evolution is over with for humans. That’s not likely, given past evidence. Another said the question is just silly, so why bother talking about it?How silly is it, and why is it silly? Is it silly because currently, we don’t know if there could be an impact, therefore, let’s bury our heads in the sand and ignore it? And let’s call people who want to find out “silly”. Let’s cow them into submission so they won’t want to talk about it, so we can be right.

Bob,You know I can take it, big boy! Keep ‘em coming!

Selective comprehension is a sad disease – but let’s not cure it, because it may eff-up evolution.

How silly is it, and why is it silly? Is it silly because currently, we don’t know if there could be an impact, therefore, let’s bury our heads in the sand and ignore it? And let’s call people who want to find out “silly”. Let’s cow them into submission so they won’t want to talk about it, so we can be right.

I didn’t say that we don’t know if there will be an impact. I said that most everything we as a human race do does have an impact.Bringing evolution into a discussion about abortion right is disingenuous. It’s something made up by evangelicals. The thought process went something like this:- They discredit my religious beliefs with evolution, even though I know God created man;- Therefore evolution is their religious belief;- They do not believe that abortion is a sin, since they don’t beleive in my religion;- So, I will make them think abortion is a sin in thier religion of evolution.It’s not about fearmongering, it’s about common sense. You don’t fuck with most things you can’t control, and you cannot control that which you do not understand. The human race does not understand the implications of abortion on evolution; we don’t even know if it has an impact, because we don’t ENOUGH to know if it does. We can map the human genome. We can study it, but we are on like page eight of a ten billion page book.This has all the signs of creationist clap-trap. “You can’t show me a 100% complete archeological record of man evolving from apes, so it can’t be true.”Introducing evolution into a discussion of abortion rights is an attempt to sidetrack the real issue. Yes, silly.(Sorry ladies – I have no ovaries, but I do have a brain, and hate to see this kind of nonsense.)

the “fearmongering” paragraph in my last post was supposed to be in a block quote.Wish we had an edit feature here Bob…

PPP, you can be as theorectical as you wish, but you seem to have forgotten two points:1.) your debate is off-topic.2.) you are male. You should have no choice in this matter– see JM Ashby’s, Jane’s, Sammy’s, GI’s posts upthread (I apologize if I have forgotten someone).Make points if you wish, but this is not the time nor the place.

Minx,I’m merely answering questions.Also, read my last comment.Hope you guys didn’t get buried in white stuff on Saturday. We did.

Nonsense? Silly? Because you tried to label me and failed? Try again.

Tell us then how abortions will “mess up” evolution. Others here have asked, and you’ve not yet stated your position. Will we start growing second heads or something?

Minx,In a practical sense, most abortions occur when the fetus is already a body.

Jane,I’m fixed. Good enough?

PPP, not really good enough, no. That’s sort of “cleaning up your own backyard.”Now before you tell the rest of the world what they oughta be doing, let’s hear some constructive input.

Also: reread Ms. Sammy at 10:44.

Alan,I have answered your questions as best I can. It’s simple. Evolution is a numbers game, a probability equation over time, a risk, if you will.When you change the rules of the game, you change the game. When you change the numbers, you change the game. We like to talk about things like “delicate balance” when we want to protect nature and prove a climate change point. Life is as precariously balanced as our atmosphere, or our weather.I can’t tell you WHAT could happen, Alan, not if you want specifics. But you’re a smart person, surely you can see that fucking with a living balance might not be in our best interests?

ppp, i tried to follow your thoughts to the best of my ability but it just had no concrete idea in it. you are basically saying you are terrified of the “what if’s” of the world. even when there isn’t a dreadful outcome to something. example. your thoughts on needful diseases. what disease is needful? what is the positives of a cold, polio, cancer?! by that same token is penicillin harmful to evolution? vaccinations? (btw, i personally don’t prefer vaccines and overuse of antibiotics unless absolutely needed.) but didn’t such vaccines help evolution by protecting against death from this diseases?abortion has absolutely no impact on evolution! and if it does it is a positive one. bare with me…at the rate we are reproducing we will no doubt run out of “world” and resources to house and supply us with our needs. so those who survive the violence over rationing and cramped living space would, i assume, evolve into smaller beings from malnurishment and “caged” spaces. which could only make is less intelligent because our focus would shift back to the hunt for basic needs. unless the aliens come and show us “the way”. hey, maybe we will evolve into aliens!!! wow. that took a weird turn. =) do you see what i am getting at at all ppp?!jane, my sexual activities are many and no pregnancy scare yet! (high five)

High five to you, Gyps! You can guarantee no pregancy– just give up the mens… I know, we’re not ready for that, yet.

J,To save the life of the mother, I am for. In cases of incest, child molestation, I am for. In cases of “oops”, I am not.

I’m still scratching my head over what exactly PPP is talking about with regard to evolution. I agree with gypsy when she said:”abortion has absolutely no impact on evolution! and if it does it is a positive one. bare with me…at the rate we are reproducing we will no doubt run out of “world” and resources to house and supply us with our needs. so those who survive the violence over rationing and cramped living space would, i assume, evolve into smaller beings from malnurishment and “caged” spaces. which could only make is less intelligent because our focus would shift back to the hunt for basic needs.”That makes sense to me. Also, I think having unwanted babies is far more consequential than not having them.

@PPP: I see what instances you’re “for.” I just don’t get how those instances differ. I mean, if it’s a life, it’s a life, right? What does it matter if it’s an incestuous life? Unless you’re saying you don’t think it’s a life, but you don’t think it should be a method of after the fact birth control. Which is a bit different from what you said at first, which is why I’m asking you to clarify.

@Gypsy: Oh, I don’t think he’s a religous crazy. If the argument being made is that every conception is a life and that it is ok to end a life in certain circumstances, than fine. I just wasn’t clear if that’s the argument being made.

To All The Gals Here:You know what just popped into my head? Ever see “Mommie Dearest”? There’s a scene in that movie where Joan Crawford is meeting with the board of Pepsi and she screams at the top of her lungs: “DON’T FUCK WITH ME FELLAS!!!!”Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAN6tfMhaUThought that was kind of appropos for this discussion. )