Helmets

I think the opposite: mandate helmets but don’t enforce it until they’re actually injured. Death tax and helmet tax at death or injury works for me.

>>Everyone should have to wear a helmet on a motorcycle to lower insurance costs and prevent death.I would say: Everyone *ought to* wear a helmet. Not “have to.”Even though I’m opposed to helmet laws, it still makes me cringe to see a guy flying down the highway on his crotchrocket without a helmet, or down a 25% grade on his $2500 Cervelo without a helmet. Stupid people.

Here’s the thing…You don’t wear a helmet, why should the rest of us have to bear the cost of your traumatic injury?IF you want universal health care, then folks ought to engage the duty to take reasonable precautions.No it won’t “bring her back,” but it will prevent the next one.If you want to say, “It’s MY head,” then be prepared to hear “These are YOUR medical bills.”Strap on your seatbelt, wear a helmet…take those reasonable precautions…and when you get carted into the emergency room, we’ll take care of you.Go flaunting your windblown hair down the interstate on your Jap crotch rocket…sorry, here’s hoping your insurer covers blatant idiocy.There’s NO overlap at all between the foolishness of video game censorship and the enforcement of helmet laws.Helmets = PROVEN outcome enhancers. Like seatbelts.

@ KyleCome on, dude. Your not really going to invoke the slippery slope to argue that seatbelt laws are a bad idea, are you?…that children ought not to be carried on Mama’s lap in the front seat…If you can’t distinguish “Wear a helmet – it not only helps you, but helps everyone else, too” from “Put down that Big Mac you fat bastard!” I’d suggest, most politely, that you’re being obtuse.

Maybe they can mandate that we all eat our veggies next.

Look…all I’m saying is this:There is a clear and present danger involved in riding a motorcycle (trust me…I drive one in TAIWAN…I KNOW what I’m talking about!).If you choose to eschew reasonable measures that are proven to decrease the chances of the rest of us having to bear the cost of your traumatic brain injury, you need to be prepared for the rest of us to say, “Sorry…you’re not covered under the Bonehead exception clause.”

Same ol’ BS like the cavalier attitude toward healthcare…legislate the crap out of something AFTER a tragic loss brings it to the fore.Safety, maintenance, responsibility, preventive care, common sense.I can’t believe Ms Richardson chose to take up skiing at 45 yrs old. I’m thinking she was about 35 yrs late. I’m kinda pissed about it.

@cousinaviI fully appreciate the point you’re making. But…If you’re an obese person, there are many reasonable measures you could take that are proven to decrease the chances of the rest of us having to bear the cost of your heart surgeries, diabetes treatments, etc. Do you think that these reasonable measures (limiting fatty food intake, for example) should be legislated, especially since obesity puts a much larger burden on the health care system than traumatic brain injuries from motorcycle accidents?

cousinavi wrote:>>Let’s try for some sort of reasonable middle ground, shall we?Yeah, I’m just talking about helmets here. I’m certainly not anti-regulation.>>If you choose to eschew reasonable measures that are proven to decrease the chances of the rest of us having to bear the cost of your traumatic brain injury, you need to be prepared for the rest of us to say, “Sorry…you’re not covered under the Bonehead exception clause.”I agree with this.

I’m with Bob on this one. But I also agree with cousinavi.One may make the decision to not take proper precautions but one must then be willing to incur the full responsibility for any untoward results of said decision.I don’t like laws such as these. They are unnecessary. All that was needed was for insurance companies to say that occupants of vehicles that were not wearing seatbelts or using appropriate safety restraint systems will not be covered for medical costs in case of an accident. Similarly for helmets and motorcycles.The insurance companies could also have offered coverage (at a much higher premium) for people that don’t want to be bothered by safety equipment.This does not address the circumstances of Ms. Richardson’s accident.

@ KyleI take your point re: obese folks very seriouslyHypothetical: We have one heart lung machine but two patients.One is a smoker, the other is not.For the purposes of this point, you may further assume that the reason the smoker needs the machine is a direct result of smoking.The non-smoker, however, suffers from a genetic condition – it is NOT the result of anything within her control.Rather frighteningly, it’s not that difficult for me to say, “Look, you three pizzas for lunch fat fucker…you’re insurance premiums are gonna cost more. You want to save some money, drop a few pounds.”And I KNOW how close that is to “You carry a gene that makes you 50% more likely to develop diabetes, so you pay more whether you get it or not.”And from there to, “Alright, fat boy…STFU and get on the train.”Nevertheless…I just gotta…just gotta…jump back KISS M’Se’f!!!…maintain that there’s a difference between “Wear a helmet” and “Breathe deep in the shower, Spaz…it will clear the lungs.”

Bob:You need to set this interface up in such a way that one has the ability to edit one’s own posts.That way, I could go back and change the WOULD into a WOULDN’T, and fix those ugly your/you’re things.Leaving them there means I will have trouble sleeping.Damnit.

@ aviNo prob – it’s all good. I hope I don’t get to the point where you really attack me – I’ve seen the verbal smackdowns you’ve given others and sure don’t want to be part of one! Since I live in the state that voted “yes” on Prop 8 (much to my disgust and chagrin), some of the measures on recent ballots, etc. have really started to piss me off. There are some counties that have outlawed smoking outside, for fucks sake. They’re trying to make it illegal for you to smoke in your own home/car if you have children. Makes me wonder what the fuck is next – Prohibition again?I understand all the secondhand smoke bullshit but Jebus, when are they going to start going after the fat fucks and chronic alcoholics/gamblers?

@ BlueFanChrist. Have I got a reputation around here? I was still operating under a semi-lurker assumption. Pop in, be pithy, pull a Lone Ranger my-job-is-hi-ho-silver-away…leave everyone wondering Who was that masked man?Perspective’s a bitch.

I think we’re missing something here, which is that while seat belts emphatically DO save lives and reduce injuries by a pretty wide margin (they prevent people from being thrown from the car, hurled through the windshield, impaled, etc.), according to most stories I’ve read, helmets wouldn’t do much on the ski slopes, since most injuries occur in accidents where it’s the body that’s being ripped apart (hitting a tree, for example) or the head is being hit such a hard blow that wearing a helmet doesn’t matter. Natasha Richardson’s suffering a deadly injury on the bunny slope was tragic but a statistical anomaly, and any rush to require helmets for skiers doesn’t mesh with the known risks.

And while we’re at it, I can’t believe there are people who seriously argue that if you didn’t do everything possible to prevent a condition, whether it’s being tossed around inside a car or suffering a heart attack, they don’t deserve to be treated? No wonder we can’t get universal health care…. And, news flash: Thin people die of heart attacks, all the time. Fat people try all their lives to make good food choices and exercise and still can’t lose weight. People cause auto accidents and are hit by cars because they won’t stop reaching for their cell phones or turn off their iPods. At some point, could the focus just be caring for each other and not judging each other?

@ Peggy again.No one said “everything possible.”The question is not What’s possible…the question is What’s REASONABLE.See the analogy above: One heart lung machine – two patients in need. One is a smoker, the other isn’t./going to get cigarettes. brb

@ GItheJoe”Yeah, yeah…it’s true. I spent my formative years having wild, unprotected anal sex with every bisexual Haitian junkie whore I could lay hands on. The risk was the buzz, baby! Now, I expect the rest of you to lay out full coverage for my extremely expensive retro-viral medications.”I’m sure we can find, if we try, some reasonable middle ground between seat belt laws and putting the governments hands all over your junk (no matter how eager the government may be to get its hands on your junk).

It already has your junk in more ways than we pay attention.And while I take your comment, as intended, junk in cheek…i refuse to concede that failure to take reasonable precautions to mitigate foreseeable harm ought not shift the burden, by some sliding scale of my own design, onto the nonfeasant.That’s you, btw. Nonfeasant.Pfft. I stopped too soon…you’re MALfeasant, you bastard.We both know it. With you it’s intentional.

@ PeggyI don’t want to seem…whatever I’m about to seem.Nevertheless, don’t start yanking silly ass stats like “Most falls occur in the home” on ME. It won’t get you anywhere, and will only provoke me.While it is certainly true that most falls occur in the home, let’s then account for the “person/hours spent in the home” versus “person/hours spent on the ski slopes” and THEN figure out how likely one is to suffer traumatic brain injury as a result of any particular hour spent somewhere.The slippery slope logic you want to inflict on me is bleeding over the edges of your argument, merely in the other direction. As I said before, there must certainly be some REASONABLE middle ground between Nanny State and Fuck You The Infant LIKES to Ride Up Front On My Lap.

Avi, the reasonable middle ground is mandating seat belts and motorcycle helmets because they reduce fatalities and injuries in hundreds of thousands of people a year. “Nanny State” is a loaded term. Our interconnectedness is no longer on a village level, but we still have a justifiable interest in the health and safety of our neighbors.

Okay…I am a nurse- have worked ER and PEDS- so maybe I am not unbiased about the Helmet issue- BUT…I have some thoughts about Natasha Richardson…(1) She should have gotten care, been seen by an MD and ER right away after her spill- it was a bad enough spill that the Ski Instructors accompanied her to her room and encouraged her to be seen. She refused and supposedly the first ambulance that was sent to the Hotel was then sent away.( also it was on the Bunny Slope and it is not common for people to wear helmets on the bunny beginner slope- although Canada is going to look at perhaps making some Law changes there…)(2) “walk and die” head injuries happen – BUT they can be lessoned if there is Immediate Medical Intervention with CT scans and Steroids and yes even surgery- but medical care must be right away.(3)If you have a head trauma and others that are around you are worried- and saw it- listen to them about getting medical care- after such a fall or injury you might not be able to make good decisions, or clear headed ones.So the main thing is get Medical Care Right Away….Do NOT wait. Until you have Bad symptoms…..listen to those around you.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( about Helmets..as a nurse I say any sport that is prone to falls or falls on a hard surface- there should be Helmets worn- Horsback riding, skateboarding etc….)

@ PeggyThose ain’t insults, how they feel incoming notwithstanding.Honest.The point remains, failure to take reasonable precautions to mitigate perfectly foreseeable dangers ought, and well ought, to diminish any claim to compensation / treatment / consideration.Two injured in an auto accident:1. The innocent, sober driver waiting properly at the red light, belted in and paying attention.2. The drunk, speeding, unbelted idiot who slammed into the properly patient car from behind.All else being equal, who deserves the attention of the single EMT on the scene?If you want the government to keep their greasy Nanny State hands off your noggin so you can go cruising around on your Harley Pan Head, fine…just don’t come crying to me when you lose the ability to wipe your own arse for lack of an $80 helmet. I got innocent, sober, seatbelted accident victims to take care of.

I would just like to offer one additional variable that I haven’t noticed mentioned in this discussion so far. That would be attorneys, and their love for lawsuits, and how adding their role in some of these scenarios might change things. For instance, let’s take this previously mentioned example, as it was a good one:”The point remains, failure to take reasonable precautions to mitigate perfectly foreseeable dangers ought, and well ought, to diminish any claim to compensation / treatment / consideration.Two injured in an auto accident:1. The innocent, sober driver waiting properly at the red light, belted in and paying attention.2. The drunk, speeding, unbelted idiot who slammed into the properly patient car from behind.All else being equal, who deserves the attention of the single EMT on the scene?”Ok the EMT treats the one belted in, but this one’s ends up being a case where the intervention could not have saved them and they die anyway, and the other patient dies from lack of treatment, but could have made it if treatment was given. Now the attorneys will have a field day with this one and they sue for millions.These lawyers probably are the root cause of why most safety laws typically do not give you the option of wearing the helmet or not, for instance.

I’ve done several stories on this topic, and have talked to lobbyists, legislators, ABATE members, etc.It’s a mess with no clear end in sight. Lots of rhetoric for one part of the issue or another.Motorcyclists, per vehicle miles traveled were in 2006 35 times (!) more likely to die in a highway fatality.In 2007, riders represented about 0.4% of all vehicle miles traveled, but represented close tp 13% of highway fatalities.Congress, while providing billions in stimulus money to the people who got us in this mess, gave out a whopping $2 million for the first motorcycle crash causation study in America in the last 28 years. The study is on hold, because they need a few million more.What is at stake? A record number of killed riders last year, over 5,000 who each left moms, wives, children, friends behind.Congress deems it worth it to pay $2 million to get answers so policy makers can begin to form more effective strategies to reverse the trend which has gotten worse the last 10 years.And oh, helmets? Yes, agreed. I never ride without one. People need to exercise common sense. There are however people aggressively pushing misinformation campaigns to actually paint helmets as safety hazards that impair your view, hearing, and could snap your neck, instead of save your skull.That is how badly some want to fight off helmet laws. It’s not only about “freedom” or liberty,” they say they represent a pittance of a public burden, and besides, helmets are not the problem, it’s all those distracted drivers, bigger cars on average to run into in collisions, and so on.These arguments do hold some water, but, as mentioned, I still will wear my helmet and head to toe gear.Need I go on?-Jeffhttp://motorcyclesafetynews.com

Although libertarianism in its totality almost causes me to vomit, I’m a total a libertarian when such a matter is posed to me.When I was twenty years old I was driving to class at my university. A pig pulled me over because I wasn’t wearing my seatbelt. The idiot called backup because… well, apparently I was angry because I was going to be late for class. I’m 6’4″, and at the time I was a scrawny 180 pounds. DANGEROUS! I wore a seatbelt 95% of the time. He happened to catch me at a moment when I was making haste. Everything that occured during the citation process– its 45 minute duration, the pig’s attitude (even when I wasn’t initially displaying anger), the fine ($75) reeked of a state-sanctioned fleecing.Now I wear a seatbelt 99% of the time because I’m usually not pressed for time- not because I was cited ten years ago.I support anything that prevents a freedom-infringing (they want to search your car now for a misdeameanor under the excuse of “9/11 changed everything,” folks) pig from pulling me or someone else over for an excrutiatingly minor offense, including the failure to wear a helmet while bike riding.

Anecdotes make for lousy policy.And weak argument.This is BCAGB! You ought to do better than some rant about that one time some pig fucked you over./down with the pigsReminds me of a back home story.I used to know this guy from a place called Vogler’s Cove. He worked on the scallop boats hauling net. Long stringy blond hair, skinny fucker, arms like Popeye.Asked him once how old he was when he started drinking. He said “Grade three.”He had a peer present vouched for that.Asked him when was the last time he went a week without a drink.”Grade three.”Anyway…It was a Halloween party. Joe had consumed, mostly in my presence, at least 24 beer, a quart of rum, a quart of whiskey, half a bottle of Grand Marnier and a few other random shots of whatever was about.At some point in the evening, Joe went out to the barn and hauled a couple of armloads of corn out of the corn crib…sat down in the middle of the yard and started stringing the ears together on rabbit wire, much like you might thread popcorn for the Xmas tree.When he had a giant bunch of corn all wired together, he tied a rope to the bundle, attached the other end to the bumper of his truck and went driving back and forth up and down the connector road to the Trans-Canada highway.It was Halloween. Only a matter of time until the Mounties spotted him. They pulled him over.License and registration….What you doin with the corn tied the back of your truck, son?Joe covered one eye in order to focus:”I’m trollin’ fer PIGS! Looks like I caught me a couple!”

Yeah. I’m new to this place.Thanks ever so much for sorting me out.I shall embark immediately on a search and destroy mission for the few remaining brain cells hiding up in there.And (how could I have missed the weight of it? For shame, for shame) thanks for that one extra tipping anecdote that showed the error of my ways.Hassled for an hour. For speeding.Damn PIGS! How DARE you make me late???Why do think I was speeding, motherfucker?Dude. You’re lucky this is the internet. I’m tempted to stab you in the throat for even saying such ridiculous shit.One of your first posts, indeed.Let me know when you work your way up to your first SHAVE.

Within the swarm of midges commenting on skiing and helmets…Statistics are interesting things….if motor cycle riders are divided by age you see a difference in closed head injuries. the younger riding the Ninja in full face helmet, shorts and flip flop group has more closed head injuries even with helmets.I am all for restricting engine displacement and operating times based on age. Think Germany. Required courses for operators license in safety, braking, counter steering and defensive riding should be required by DMV and insurance companies.require helmets for new motorcyclists and give the choice to ones who have passed through the training, licensing and gaining of real experience.A certain amount of Darwinism will come into play regardless of rules, helmets and training…That being said, I could fall in my back yard and die like Natasha Richardson. Life is a risk people. You can’t just live life on the treadmill in the safety of your living room.consider this…Motorcyclists per capita have a lower incidence of closed head injuries that seat belted car drivers. All car drivers should be required to have 4 point restraints and helmets..