Party Identification

Bob,Did you happen to see that in some polls, (Pew researh, for example) Independents make up the largest sector now, 36%? Also interesting is that Congress’ approval rating is back down to 28%, while Obama’s approval remains high.2010 may not look good for either party. I wonder if we are going to see more Independents running for Congress and the Senate.Seriously, though, Bob, wouldn’t you rather deal with Independents than Republicans?

You have to understand, Bob, that some of us saw this coming when Bush 43 got in in the first place. It was only a matter of time before the jig was up. Some of us knew Bush 43 was coasting on Monicagate. We knew he was a blight on the Bush Family pedigree. We knew he was a Yank fronting for the rubes out in Tex-Ass. We understood that poppy pulled strings to get him into every high position he’d ever set foot in, yet still found a way to fuck it all up. We knew he would bring down the GOP. We also knew that the GOP would find a way to legacy-build off of a phony war, and we knew that they would eventually leave the country in debt…AGAIN.Some of us are not surprised by the plight of the GOP. Again, it was only a matter of time before “the chickens came home to roost,” as a great man once said.

i get what you’re saying bob, but don’t you think the majority of american people are different now than say even 2005? i mean, with a decline in religion, advances in science, the ever growing minority population and acceptance of homosexuality i don’t see how the republican party with their current beliefs and actions will ever make a comeback. (don’t get me wrong we still have a way to go.) i’m afraid that the democratic party will become this big umbrella party taking in moderates which will leave the party with no differentiating set of beliefs. i want a progressive party damn it!

Congress’ approval ratings are down because the Republicons are all over TV attempting to bring the whole blasted country down with them. I believe that the increase in their bullshit rhetoric is designed to set the bar so low that they’ll be seen as capable as the Dems. Some of us know this is folly, and that the Republicons are not about helping America, but seek to leave our country of its ingenuity and indomitable spirit. They do this so that they’ll be seen as benevolent while they are in power. They are truly malicious fascists and a collective of villains. This is not just my opinion. This can all be proven as a matter of fact if one pays attention to how the majority of GOP reps speak.Listen to the average GOP rep speak, then read an issue of a Marvel comic, say, Fantastic Four, preferably one with Dr. Doom. Or perhaps something with the High Evolutionary, Baron Zemo, or A.I.M. adherents. I tell you, there is no difference, other than the comic book villains actually being involved in a plot where they’ll eventually lose. The GOP are villains stuck in a perpetual cycle, unlike their comic book counterparts that are involved in a narrative that eventually ends.I’m being serious.Look into it.

ppp, for the love of mango salsa, will you please shut up about the independent shit! does it make you feel better that you are being joined in majority by republicans who are probably jumping ship so they don’t publicly appear to be a racist dumbass when they say i’m a republican?! can’t wait to see how “independent” you guys are. i assume it will be just as “democratic” as specter!

Lexaburn,You’re blaming a Democratic Congress’ approval rating on Republicans? In case you haven’t noticed, they bash the President more than the Democratic congress.Nope, this rating has nothing to do with Republicans being stupid and everything to do with people in this country seeing through the political party corruption. Independents are the only group whose numbers are rising, not just nationwide, but in every region. Democratic numbers actually fell from 2008 to 2009.Face it. Americans want a clean government, not one owned by special interests, and neither political party can offer that.

To paraphrase a famous quote, the imminent demise of the GOP has been greatly exaggerated.Of course liberals are eager to amplify any setbacks among conservatives as proof positive that the entire movement is swirling the drain. This what being partisan means, and all the liberals on this blog are doing an exemplary job of piling on.However, I strongly suspect that the fist-bumping Snoopy dance you’re all hoping to do over the stiffening corpse of the Republican Party will never come to pass, as the political ID popularity/unpopularity thing is CYCLICAL.Once you comprehend the truth of this — especially given historical trends — you might be a bit less bloodthirsty in your anti-conservative celebratory gyrations.-A

Gypsy,”ppp, for the love of mango salsa”They make mango salsa?

>>>They make mango salsa?dude, you’re missing out if you have never had the deliciousness that is mango salsa!

Doesn’t the Geico caveman order duck with mango salsa for lunch in one of those commercials?……

I’ve noticed something odd. It seems I now see way more Obama/Biden bumper stickers than I did leading up to the election. Could it be that people are using them to cover up their McCain/Palin stickers? If so, it’s a far better alternative than when people would cover up their Bush/Cheney bumper stickers with “My Kid Can Beat Up Your Honor Student” stickers…………

A -The Republican party is now the party of Fascist Gumbies. They offer nothing but loud noises. They advocate the concentration of all wealth into the top 1%. They want a world like that of soylent green, where the top 1% treat the bottom 99% like cattle and feed them each other.Your party has revealed it’s true nature. You are a bunch of arrogant, anti-social, self-centered, fascist assholes. You are not going to win new members. You are driving people out of your party with your Christofascist purity tests and the average IQ of the party is in full plummet.Pretty soon the Republican Party leadership will be standing in brooks randomly screaming the following phrases:”Socialism is bad!”"Enhanced Interrogation kept us safe!”"Deficit Spending is Bad!”"Down with Socialism!”"Everyone but us is unamerican!”"Goddamn Rev. Wright!”"Abortions are bad!”"Down with Socialism!”"Stop irresponsible spending!”Keep up the good work. Your congressional caucus already look like a bunch of Gumbies. They display all of the intellect of a sack of spanners. Especially Boehner and Cantor. Real fucking arrogant asshat morons. I hope they get a clown car. It would be appropriate.

Bob, I get the concern that we need an opposition party, different viewpoints etc. And there are many differing views within those who call themselves “Democrats” but to the public at large the distinctions aren’t so visible. So marginalization of the Republicans could spell problems for Dems down the road, for many reasons most here already know of.But they are doing it to themselves, becoming ever more zealous, insisting on a narrow set of beliefs and policy positions that one must adhere to or else you’re not a REAL republican. Even if we admit the dangers inherent in one party power, I don’t think we have any control over it. They have to reconstitute themselves, or perhaps another party will arise from the ashes of this one.

Always the pessimist, I believe that a large chunk of these so-called independents will vote with the Plutocrat Party every time. For example, my Dad gets mad when I associate him with Republicans (“I’m not a Republican dammit!”), but he refuses to get Fox News off his television screen and wouldn’t vote for a Dem if a gun was pointed at his head.So, I wouldn’t take that 21 percent figure to literally. The 35 percent Dem figure is also disappointing to me. This number must rise if we expect to sustain ourselves over the long-term.

i hereby declare we start a a progressive party. i’m taking name options because calling it the progressive party wouldn’t be well progressive.

“2010 may not look good for either party.”Pooper, the thing you’re missing is that we still have a two-party system, which means, even if both parties have really low approval ratings, one is still going to come out with more seats than the other. The only question is which. And right now, it still doesn’t look good for the GOP.Congress over has low approval rating. That’s a simple fact. The fun part is when you ask people whether they approval of each party in Congress. The democrats get an approval rating in the range of 43-50%. Republicans are hovering around 30%.Of course, most voters rate their own congressman higher than they rate Congress as an institution and elections turn on local issues as well.Most so-called independents tend to lean towards one party or another. I know, I was a democratic leaning independent for over ten years. I know you have this fantasy that the independents are all going to rise up and tear down both parties and then we’ll somehow have the first political party-free government in the history of democracy. Good luck with that.Personally, I want to see three or four more major parties emerge so that voters have more choices than the current crop of tweedledee vs. tweedledum.The GOP probably won’t go the way Whig party. They’ll eventually rebrand themselves. I suggest they start with a new animal as their symbol. Elephants are too independent-minded for today’s authoritarian GOP. I suggest they go with the lemming.

D.C.”I know you have this fantasy that the independents are all going to rise up and tear down both parties and then we’ll somehow have the first political party-free government in the history of democracy. Good luck with that.”That’s what was said about the Continental Army’s chances against good old King George the 3rd.Why wouldn’t the first nation to write a constitutional democracy also be the first nation to realize the needlessness of political parties?It is possible that we are living in a new age of enlightenment. The internet and television have brought information to the masses, with the internet spilling over in “unspun” news. We know what is happening in Washington, the seat of our government, at the speed of light. What once was hidden is now being exposed. Websites like Opensecrets.org have opened closets that took months and years to open in the past. The “common” people are looking in that closet, and they do not like what they see, from either party.Why would you question the possibility of a party-free government? Do you really believe that people will always want a particular, outdated ideology to represent them?Look at our youngest voting generation. If you can see them swallowing the party line for fifty years, good luck with that.

ppp, political parties naturally emerge in any democratic setting. See Duverger’s law.

I’m the youngest voting generation, and so are all my siblings and friends, I see myself and them being a democrat for a long, long time.You don’t abolish a flawed system, PPP, you change it. And your fantasy is unworkable.And if you haven’t had mango salsa, go find some>/i>.

fe,no one is abolishing a flawed system. But the flawed system isn’t political parties. The flawed system is our government, which is separate from political parties. I’m all for changing our systm within reason. As for the parties, well, they’ve outlived their usefulness.

Gyps, I submit The Mango Salsa Party. Our tagline can be: “We’re all that with a bag of chips.”Or as an alternative, “You’ll love the way we taste.” But that’s only if a Tea Bag Party is created.

okay, well, now you’re doing something I hate: change your argument so that people agree with you and pretend that was your argument the whole time. See: Lee Stranahan.You were not talking about the government being flawed, you were talking about the very idea of political parties being flawed.”…the needlessness of political parties…”"…Americans want a clean government, not one owned by special interests, and neither political party can offer that…”Of course the government is flawed, and no one disagrees with that. And the current political parties are both flawed, and no one disagrees with that. But getting rid of them is not the answer.And now I’m off to look up Duverger’s Law, thanks to Kyle.

PPP, your points on people wanting a “clean” government are moot. That is because “we the people” are unclean to begin with. Therefore, we get what we put into office. This “low approval” nonsense is not to be taken seriously by anyone that actually thrives within this culture saturated with coddling. “We the people” are the ultimate “special interest,” whether we want to view ourselves that way or not. You don’t have to take Lexaburn’s word for it. Just ask anyone whether they could run government “better” and you’ll, perhaps, see things a bit more clearly.I am a registered Independent. I was a Democrat for a total of two years about twelve years ago before I became an Independent. In my first presidential election, I voted for – wait for it – PAT BUCAHNAN! Don’t ask, or do, I don’t care if I have to explain myself.Anyway, I know what I’m talking about. I’m not in this to see one side or another gain ground. I’m in this to see America maintain its stability. However, that does not preclude me from understanding when those who mean the country no good are pulling shenanigans left and right. The Democrats for the most part are fickle and are forever seeking political expediency. They always mean well, but in the end they fail to keep themselves in line with their so-called principals. They’ve been that way throughout my lifetime (I’m 32, and yes, a child of the 80s). On the other hand, the GOP has always been an anachronism. It has always attempted to force a lifestyle onto folks that NO ONE can ever live up to in the effort to play like they hold all the answers. With Democrats you get platitudes but none of the forced coercion that comes from the GOP. The Republicons are malicious. I’ve witnessed it throughout my life, and although they espouse a few common sense ideals that anyone with half a brain can agree with, eventually the base strata they GOP adheres to is always revealed and it always boils down to their controlling an entire populace through malevolent means. This is proven by their reliance on the “fair and balanced” media environment, their constant bitching and hypocritical accusations, and their jovial sneers at common sense approaches to everyday problems. The GOP is a corpse that needs to be put out of everyone’s misery. It cannot dies soon enough.The two-party system is defunct as long as the GOP is allowed to sully American politics.Attempt to learn me all you want, but I don’t follow these polls signifying approval to begin with. All I’m offering is how I view the “approval ratings” memes that seem to dominate how we view the political environment. If congress actually had a chance to get something done with a modicum of transparency (not just consideration for the busy-bodied political wonks), the approval ratings for congress would still be what they are. I believe people just assume that everyone in government is no damned good when considering them all as a group. Call me silly, but that’s just how I see it all.

“That’s what was said about the Continental Army’s chances against good old King George the 3rd.”Ah, the old “they were wrong about X, therefore, I’m right about Y” logical fallacy.It is human nature to band together into groups of commonality. Whether it’s by ethnicity, religion, or philosophical bent, people have been doing it since the dawn of time. The ancient Greeks divided themselves up into factions even as they practiced direct democracy. To think that somehow, people are going to abandon this practice shows a lack of understanding of human nature that Marxism displays.As for parties outliving their usefulness, that hasn’t happened. The organizational structure and fund raising ability of political parties is still the most efficient way to get elected to office. The intertubes haven’t changed that, it’s only altered the way in which parties communicate with potential voters.The boomer generation once believed that they were going to tear down a flawed system and create a new utopia without either of the prevailing parties. They ended up being co-opted by the system. They didn’t just swallow the party line, they’ve become the ones who are selling it.And the same will happen with this youngest generation.

Yes, the government is flawed. Yes, both parties are flawed. Guess what? Anything we create to replace the current system will also be flawed. The only question is whether the flaws are at least livable.Saying you want a government that is “free of special interests” is just a bunch of meaningless tripe. Farmers are a special interest. Labor unions are a special interest. Teachers are a special interest. Small business owners are a special interest. Students are a special interest.Everyone belongs to at least one special interest and we’re all competing for the government’s attention. When people say they want a government that is free of special interests, what they really mean is that they want to get rid the special interests that they don’t like.

I wish people would use “unaffiliated” rather than “independent”. It’s to the point where people think of independents are another party – the Dems, the GOP, and the independents – and the assumption kind of becomes that everyone who is independent is so for the same reasons. Unaffiliated is really a better term for what people are.It has always been that unaffiliated voters are the largest bloc and yet getting one elected has been made excruciatingly difficult by the two dominant parties. THAT needs to be reformed. If we’re truly going to have a representative gov’t, then all political views should be represented.Political parties have been part of our gov’t forever & always will be. And they come & go, they change & evolve. The Know-Nothings, the Whigs, the Bull Moose Party. The GOP now is not like the GOP of 40 years ago; neither is the Democratic.The demise of the Republican party brings a great opportunity for people to have some say in the creation of new parties – now could be the time when we break the hold of the two party system.just sayin’…

From: Rasmussen ReportsEveryone here should take a look at this new Rasmussen Report, and examine the reasons for their result, as it is running totally counter to what everyone here believes is the case.(The only valid interuputation of the 21% number from the Washington Post Survey is that the 35Dem/21Rep/38Ind is the breakdown of their SAMPLE. That’s all you can say with ANY validity.)”Generic Congressional BallotRepublicans Top Democrats on Generic Congressional BallotTuesday, April 28″”For just the second time in more than five years of daily or weekly tracking, Republicans now lead Democrats in the latest edition of the Generic Congressional Ballot.”"Democrats are currently at their lowest level of support in the past year while Republicans are at the high water mark.”http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/congressional_ballot/generic_congressional_ballot

“Face it. Americans want a clean government, not one owned by special interests, and neither political party can offer that.”I don’t agree with much, but I do agree with this statement. (Even Traditional Democrats are becoming concerned.) The Independant movement is growing because average Americans are sitting on the fence!!!!!!!!!!!!!They don’t like what they’re seeing, yet they don’t care for the alternative, because it currently has no real agenda direction.Continue to attack my spelling and grammar, ignore the facts.Silly Git, you’re trying way too hard!!(And, it looks and sounds like Hillary when she shrieks.) It must be because you have another agenda besides providing your opinion.

Saying you want a government that is “free of special interests” is just a bunch of meaningless tripe. Farmers are a special interest. Labor unions are a special interest. Teachers are a special interest. Small business owners are a special interest. Students are a special interest.

Well said, D.C.

Rasmussen appears to be an outlier.http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.htmlEven Fox News can’t come up with a poll that favors the republicans. Rasmussen seems to be the pollster you call to give you whatever results you want. They are always the outlier that doesn’t match up with other polls taken on the same subject.”The Independant movement is growing because average Americans are sitting on the fence!!!!!!!!!!!!!”Well, your use of multiple exclamation points certainly makes a strong argument. I’m convinced. Sorry, was that making fun of your grammar? At least I didn’t mention that you misspelled “Independent”.Oops.

DC,I said “owned by special interests”. I have no problem, whatsoever, with Special Interests. I get that there will always be groups, AND individuals, who want to sit down and talk with our elected officials about their particular needs.I draw the line at the campaign and party contributions because it looks like corruption, and neither party cares to change that, even though both parties, when not the majority, cry about it as if they will change it the second they are elected.Do you really think your party, or your elected official represents you? They spend half of their time raising campaign funds, and they have to, because the bar has been raised so high by the two parties that anyone who doesn’t spend half of their time raising money won’t be re-elected. That means the people who give the most money get the most attention.It’s been over six months since TARP was enacted. Both parties fell over themselves getting money for their largest contributors, and failed to put any kind of accountability into the bill in the process.Hundreds of thousands of citizens have lost their homes without a single dime from the government. That money which did come took three months to get there. To get the housing market back on its feet, what was offered? A fucking tax credit.Banks, insurance companies, and investment houses got cash. We got a tax credit. That doesn’t help the people who lost their homes, whose credit is now fucked, and considered untouchable by the very banks that fucked the entire financial system.More examples. There was a huge outcry from Dems and Repubs when AIG paid out bonuses to execs. Yet we’ve heard absolutely NO outrage over these same bailed out banks and insurance companies continuing to contribute vast sums of money to the Democratic and republican parties, and our elected officials. No outrage whatsoever. Just vast hypocrisy.And don’t hold your breath on single-payer, universal health care. The insurance companies are already ponying up gobs of cash to direct this new legislation where they want it to go. They’ve already told Reid and Pelosi that they would cover everyone at the same rates, so long as everyone was required to buy their crappy insurance.Let’s completely ignore the fact that health insurance companies provide shit for service, find excuses to say no to paying, and cause healthcare costs to be around fifty percent more expensive than any system without them in it. Let’s just focus on the audacity of a contributor telling the Senate Majority Leader and the Speaker of the fucking House of Representatives how this bill will work.Do you find any problems with that?I could go on for days.No problem with special interests. Let’s just take the money out of the Lobbying, and see what we end up with.

I’m sorry for you too, because your Arrogance blinds you from reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That’s some damned proper Arrogance, with the capitalized A and all.

Wow! I love it!(I also agree that there is nothing wrong with Special Interest groups by nature.)It also only makes common sense that the more money available from the Government, the more Special Interest groups become a relevent factor.Another words, the bigger the amount pouring into the Treasury, the more corrupt the politician becomes. (Pay me, and I’ll make sure your vioce is heard, and your agenda is funded.)

Unless first past the post stops being our electoral norm, we’ll always have some form of a two party system. In NY, we have progressive and conservative parties that exist just to belong to the republican or democratic coalition. It would be good to see broader choices and coalition building at the national level, but that’s the only distinction we’d get, because in first past the post, getting a majority is what matters.QT

Pooper, I would love to see the end of the influence of campaign contributions, but doing away with parties is not only impossible, it would not end the practice. Businesses and other groups would still raise money to elect the candidates of their choice. The only way to stop the influence of lobbyists is to take the money out of campaigns altogether and go to a publicly financed campaign system.Now, let me guess, your next reply is that neither party will do that. And you’re right, but the problem is, the current party leadership is a symptom of the problem of too much campaign cash. Your solution (getting rid of the parties), doesn’t treat the disease.

I don’t think the Republican Party has “moved far to the right” as Sen. Specter suggests. I think it has less to do with the left-right spectrum and more to do with the GOP becoming less like a serious political party and more like a cult, one whose followers slavishly adhere to and support any number of abstract principles which supposedly define it (“limited government,” “fiscal responsibility” or what have you), while everyone and everything outside the cult is rejected because they, by definition, to not stand for or believe in those abstractions. (The principles are only invoked in the abstract, as if the belief therein has meaning and practical effect in and of itself. No actual experience or concrete ideas are needed.)It comes in large part from choosing as its standard-bearer and then electing and re-electing an incompetent, inarticulate imbecile/ideologue and then having to justify that choice to themselves and everyone else by taking increasingly bizarre (anti-science?) and ultimately indefensible (pro-torture?) positions as his actions and policies become harder and harder to rationally defend. Eventually, the only rationalization one can reach is that the alternative must be substantially worse and wholly unacceptable; hence the cottage industry of hate and paranoia directed at the “Democrat party” and “libruls” and whatever other straw-men are held up as the ONLY other choice.As long as “conservatives” cling to this absurd and self-defeating dualistic notion of their own greatness and rightness and righteousness, and characterize those who are merely their political opponents as naught but purely evil, vicious, perfidious enemies of the state, this trend will continue. What is troubling is that actual elected Republican officeholders, not just the blowhards on the radio and Fox News, are encouraging and enabling it.

D.C.”Your solution (getting rid of the parties), doesn’t treat the disease.”Yes, it does. It makes it impossible to buy an entire party. Some day, we can cover how each party decides who gets campaign funding help, how much they get, and when they get it. For now, suffice it to say that an entire political party can be bought by one lobbyist for one specific issue.Forcing that lobbyist to buy EVERY elected official would alone change the game.Take the money out of lobbying altogether and the party out of government, and we’d force our elected officials to vote their conscience, which is what they are supposed to be doing.No, neither party will end the way things are funded, because they don’t give a rat’s ass whether it looks corrupt or not. It’s blatant, D.C. They’ve gotten away with it for decades, and they see no need to change it now.There is only one way to fix the disease. It will result in one of two outcomes. The way is to stop electing incumbents and members of either party, until we reach enough votes to put a real debate on the table about campaign funding. Then, we will watch both parties tear the independents apart, campaigning more viciously than ever, and beginning to draft legislation that protects their position in American government.It is my position that if we put both parties in a vice, they will crack, and show their true colors. You will not like those colors, DC.

Titan -I’ve never heard Hillary call the Republicans Gumbies.Just so that you know, I don’t care for Hillary because she is a corporatist.I have no problem with fiscal conservatives, they are needed for balance.I have no tolerance for Authoritarians (aka Fascists). This is a free country. Rush, and Dick, and Donald, and W all insisted that we all had the freedom to think exactly like them or else. They completely suppressed all dissent and shut down the media’s coverage of any and all dissent.The Republican Party now demands that all members adhere strictly to the party ideology. They may as well change their name to the National Christofascists because it is what they have become. They are indistinguishable in behavior from the Brown Shirts of the 30s. They have zero tolerance for opposing views and very strict notions on spiritual and social conduct. No other behaviors are acceptable.I’m sorry. I am not going to allow a bunch of ignorant, narrow-minded, bigoted Gumbies dictate to me how I shall live and inflict their asinine medieval religious superstitions on me via the legal system.As far as I am concerned the GOP is a total write off. The KKK is not a valid basis for a national political party. They may as well start wearing sheets to their conventions.

Hey Bob, I’d pay to see the video if you ever do get around to dancing a jig.

At TPC: Local GOP cancel speech by Utah governor– too moderate

Joanne Voorhees, the chairwoman of the Kent County Republican party in Michigan, has “abruptly canceled” an upcoming fundraiser with Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman, Jr. (R). Voorhees “said that hosting the moderate Utah governor would mean abandoning the party’s conservative principles.”

The Republican Party now demands that all members adhere strictly to the party ideology. No exceptions.I rest my case.

Silly-So what your telling us is that if a Democrat wanted to come out and say that he was Pro Life, anti gay, and wanted tax cuts for the rich, he would still be embraced by the Democratic party? It would just be business as usual, no big deal? Yeah, sure. Let me hear you say hypocrite.

Titan said – “Continue to attack my spelling and grammar…” Okay, I will. The expression is “In other words.” Not “Another words.”And holy shit…I’ve found something on which both Atanarjuat and I can agree – “the imminent demise of the GOP has been greatly exaggerated.” It deeply pains me to say this, but he’s right (of course, our agreement ends with that statement). Both parties are too deeply entrenched and too well funded to ever completely die. And the percentage of the electorate made up of Independents is too large, too ungrateful, and too stupid for either party to gain a permanent majority.After Obama and the Democrats have fixed everything and gotten the country back on track (again), the media will seize on some slight downturn or an unimportant blunder of the democratic party (see: Lewinsky “scandal”). The Independents will be swayed because on the whole, they’re almost as dumb as republicans, and they have very short memories. Darkness will fall over the land for anywhere from 8-20 years. Then when things have gotten bad enough, the whole process will start over again.

“You will not like those colors, DC.”Well, of course not, but that isn’t the point. Lobbyists buy individual pols every day. Getting rid of the parties would only eliminate the middle man and free up more cash to buy individual pols.But it still comes back to the simple fact that getting rid of all parties is impossible. It is against nature. People of common interests will always band together to push their views.