Rich People Rool! Poor People Drool!

I’m not a religious man, but there’s certainly wisdom to be found there. And aren’t the people on the right, the ones who tend to argue against helping the poor (you know, the losers), aren’t they supposed to be the party of God? Their generosity is moving.Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.Proverbs 19:17 One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, And He will repay him for his good deed.Matthew 10:42 “And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.”

Bob,Non-profit hospitals and healthcare organizations account for over 60% of such services already in the US. The infrastructure is already here to do it non-profit across the board. It’s getting rid of the health insurance infrastructure that is proving “impossible”, according to most members of both parties. Anthem/Blue Cross/ Blue Shield has already offered to eliminate basing premiums on health history, as long as every American is forced to buy insurance.Did you read that last sentence? They want our elected officials to force every American to buy their garbage, furthermore sinking America into a failed system of fucking recipients of healthcare in every possible way. Health Insurance companies do nothing but add another layer of cost to the process, and in return, they have entire divisions of their company dedicated solely to finding ways to deny paying claims.Your party is considering this, Bob. And the only reason they are is that the health insurance lobby contributes nicely to you. What have you to say about this?

@pooper I think most mindful dems on healthcare are just as repulsed as you at the amount of insurance company lobbyists in DC. We are so for the reason that we feel that healthcare, like many other foundational freedoms that we enjoy, is part of the commons that we are all a part of. Health insurance should not be a for profit system just as much as our fire departments, police departments, or public schools should be for profit. What they defend is far too valuable to be entrusted into a corporation whose only goal is to work sustaining profits and who exist with over a 30% overhead to pay out to shareholders and CEOs. Bottom line: Blue Cross and other nonprofits are great and all, but what we need is a single-payer health care system.@Bob Keep fighting the good fight there brother.

@ camel:Having asked conservatives that very question, they answer with ‘I don’t want to be forced to give.’ They want to give when and to whom they want. And then we usually get into a pie fight where they tell me that conservatives give more and have the tax receipts to prove it, and I tell them that most liberals I know don’t bother with the receipts so there’s no way to prove that point……ad nauseum.It’s possible that there is a tinge of racism there, as well. I give to who I want (read that: let the brown and black people take care of their own kind.)Just my nickel.

Adam,”I think most mindful dems on healthcare are just as repulsed as you at the amount of insurance company lobbyists in DC. “You are joking, right? Right?How can an elected official show any authenticity at being repulsed when they are busy accepting the health insurance lobbyist’s money? It looks like corruption because it is corruption. Arranging a sound-bite to make it look like you actually want to rid America of the health insurance companies is asinine when all along you’ve been accepting every penny you can get from them.Bob probably won’t answer my question. He knows as well as I do that the Democratic party will not be refusing health insurance donations any time soon.

Agreed ppp, our country is screwed sideways by massive numbers of entrenched special interests that have made our politicians dependent on their money. Meanwhile giant propaganda factories ruin the general populace’s organizational ability by effectively providing too much add-friendly programming coupled with a firm towing of the corportist line.I often attribute Europe’s passing of the US in quality of life, education, and a host of other things that produce good citizens to their willingness to take the fight to the corporations and provide services that directly improve their citizens lives.

My Man! Doin’ the damm thang!

Hey Bob, how about a bit of a reversal on that roads, fire protection, police force concept? Tell self-servatives that as citizens of the United States, they agree to ensure domestic tranquility and provide for the general welfare. So if they don’t love America, they should move to Russia.

PPP wrote:>>>Non-profit hospitals and healthcare organizations account for over 60% of such services already in the USAre you seriously suggesting that because 60 percent of community hospitals are non-profit, the United States healthcare system isn’t one of the most profitable and lucrative industries in the world? That’s rich.What about health insurance? Pharma? Specialists? Surgical procedures? You’re talking about 60 percent of one small sector of the healthcare industry, PPP.Nice try.

@jenski42:I’ve had that conversation as well. I don’t want to attack anyone for where they choose to donate, but to me the point is that it is not enough. Plenty of rich people right and left give to very worthy causes, but we still have millions of kids without health insurance and families that work hard and just can’t catch a break. What we’re doing is not enough I don’t care how many receipts a person has. We all bear a responsibility to ourselves and each other. I swear to God I don’t understand why it’s better to have two billion dollars than to have 1.9 billion. For that matter, I don’t know why it’s better to have 100K in the bank instead of 99K when you know that last 1% could mean the difference between life and death for a human being. It’s repulsive to treat lives like business. It’s the most sickening aspect of America and of human beings in general.

@ camel:Oh, I agree. 100%. I’ve also told said conservatives that they have to drop the “America is the greatest country on earth” meme if there are people that can’t afford to see a doctor. Or are dying of simple dental problems (like in rural NC/WV.) No way is that the greatest country on earth.

Bob,Nice avoidance technique. Man! You really are a politician.In case anyone is following along, Bob ignored my question, and went on the attack…an ages-old tactic called avoidance and diversion, which basically means, if you don’t like the way you’ll look in answering a question, throw your opponent off the trail by attacking them on a different, though somewhat related topic.I’ll answer his question.”What about health insurance? Pharma? Specialists? Surgical procedures? You’re talking about 60 percent of one small sector of the healthcare industry, PPP.”Bob, those issues can all be solved in time with a national healthcare plan that is one hundred percent taxpayer funded, without a single health insurance company in existence. Currently, I do believe we have a Democratic President, Congress, and Senate, all of whom are rushing to solve these problems and really sock it to the insurance companies.Wait, that last sentence is missing something. Oh, I know what it is.It’s the fact that the Democratic party CAN’T eliminate health insurance, won’t eliminate it, because you receive way too much money from the industry to even consider it.Nope, we’ll continue seeing half measures, legislative jokes, and sound-bites designed to make Democrats and Republicans appear outraged at the costs and audacity of the insurance companies, all the while they have an attache case full of cash from their most recent meeting with Dr. Dread from the insurance lobby.Until your party, Bob, decides to get serious and honest about their position with health insurers, none of the items you asked me about have any chance of being addressed, so stop avoiding the issue.For six months, all I heard from the Democratic party was how great it would be to own a huge majority in Congress and the Senate, and to have a Democratic President, so you could finally solve issues like health care. Well, Bob, you have it.Right now, Bob, you have EVERYTHING you need to start phasing out health insurance and providing coverage for every American. Obama’s plan doesn’t include life without health insurance companies; his plan includes keeping them in the loop.You have no excuse for bedding down with insurance companies, other than their money. You’ve sold your souls for a few dollars, and you are justifying your actions by saying the ends justify the means. You grab lobbyist money at every turn, winking and smiling for the cameras as you say, “someday, we’ll put them in their place, but not today, because today, we still need their money.”You begin to see why I hate political parties. It’s far more simple a task to buy an entire party, than to have to woo and buy every individual in it.

PPP,Looking at the statement again, I must have been joking, or just writing hastily before running out the door to work. We’re in total agreement about egregious lobbying going on by insurance companies. I meant by “mindful dems,” (itself a wonky term) to totally exclude those involved in Washington politics as usual, because nobody is guiltless there. The point I wanted to make still stands though: people’s health should not be in a for profit system any more than public education or police or fire departments should.We agree on the fundamental issue: fixing campaign financing and curbing the insane lobbying efforts. The problem is that nobody is talking about it that I know of except for Bernie Sanders, who is apparently far too rational to be taken seriously in Washington.

“If you own a home and can’t afford health care then your priorities are wrong.”Because…everyone who owns a home should be rolling in dough? And everyone who doesn’t…has healthcare? What does this mean??

Frances Z – I like the term self-servatives. Sums it up, doesn’t it? I’ve adopted it and will use it liberally, no pun intended.

How about just the moral issue? In this day and age, in a country which we like to call the greatest in the world, we think it’s wrong to take care of the health of our citizens? It seems so fundamental to me.

Debs: you can’t tell the self-servatives (I’m adopting it too!) about morality because they think they own the issue. Of course, their “morality” (pro-torture, pro-death-penalty, anti-euthanasia) has long since shown itself to be missing an “a-”.

Also, watching Fox News has made them quite stupid.

“Self-servatives” is an awesome term for them!

Bob- thank you for writing on this….It’s Important..As a Nurse, an RN of over 20 years, I have a strong opinion on this….ALL People deserve Healthcare…Health Insurance is dictating and playing God with People’s Health and Lives- more than 20,000 die per year due to NO Health Care ( or insurance). Millions have lost their homes due to bankruptcy attempting to pay for Medical Care,most “care” has More than Doubled in the past 5 years…. People have been literally forced to choose between Home or Health ( or sometime LIFE- ie Cancer Treatments)….I am Un-Insured- NOT by Choice- I was Canceled due to Cancer History in My Family ( breast and lung cancer- neither I can control or change), due to extra Screening I was cancelled- I had already been turned down by 14 companies. As an RN that can only find part time and per diem work here in downtrodden Ohio….so here I am Uninsured after caring for hundreds in my life…I KNOW the risk this is- but I have no choice….NONE….and yet if I lived Anywhere else in UK or Europe…I would have healthcare….In other parts of the World- Healthcare is Valued- as are the People. Here more than 48 Million are UnInsured and Uncared for -with the NEW Unemployed Numbers of this year- it above 50 Million- that is the entire Population of Canada…..I believe Health Care for ALL should be a Constitutional Right…..NO ONE should ever die because they don’t have Enough in their pocket….

On watergate summer- I have been posting about Health – and Jobs/jobless issues all week ( as they are connected)…in the comments Lanskr from Europe left this comment, I share this because it shows that Healthcare for ALL is a Possible, Realistic Aspiration:::”Living in Europe, I couldn`t even begin to think what life would have been without state-run health care.No-one, but no-one ever gets turned away from a hospital or doctor, no matter how rich or poor, whatever ailment, although there are priorities and waiting lists.Some hospitals treat non-smoking cancer patients ahead of smokers, but generally, the amount of money in a persons bank account makes no difference to their treatment, even for organ transplants, all are equal.Doctors, nurses, dentists, therapists, even psychiatrists …most, like schoolteachers, are employed by the state, on a comfortable fixed wage, the clinics and hospitals are merely seen as a public service, just like highways, schools and libraries….The costs are paid from our taxes, and yes, we spend more on health care than on our militaries, and in many ways, the system is slow and prone to mistakes, but it evolves and improves.There is “privatised medicine”, but generally used only by the wealthy and the priviledged, and probably runs to less than 5% of the people.Universal health care will come to the US, of that I`m sure, how and when is what remains to be seen.”

I agree this country, as it has moved towards the right and the control of fundamental religious groups, has lost it’s moral compass. Being responsible for each other isn’t a sign of weakness. It is a sign of a system based on doing the right thing. And while I am not a religious person, I can’t help but think of the old adage – There but for the grace of god go I. People that can never imagine a world where they might need help, might need a hand out sometime, are delusional. Just ask all the formerly wealthy people who chose to invest with Madoff. Your position in life can change on a dime.Do people take advantage of such a system? Yep. But does that mean everyone deserving should be denied help because some people take advantage? Nope.And on the whole healthcare issue – I’m sorry, but when will we learn from our mistakes? We approach every problem as if there is one single person or one single entity at fault. We are so naive, no wonder we never seem to fix anything. Healthcare reform is an incredibly complex issue and everyone, including you and I have to take a share of the blame. As long as people just want to stand around and point fingers at the health insurance industry and say it is all their fault, true healthcare reform is doomed. Yes, they are a big piece of the problem and bear a great deal of fault but so are doctors, pharmas, hospitals, healthcare equipment & technology manufacturers, suppliers, nursing homes and you and I. If we don’t rethink the fundamentals of our entire healthcare system and collectively decide what we want it to do for us, reform is a wasted effort.The world is a terribly complex place full of complex problems. If we are all simpletons who can’t manage complex thought, if we require that every problem be boiled down to one villian, one target or one set of feet to place all the blame, there is little point in discussing reform of anything.

Enigma’s commenter said it best then.If the wealthy want health insurance for their privatized care, let them pay for it themselves. For that matter, if all Republicans want to pay some dumbass health insurance company to aggravate them every time they have a claim, more power to them. They can “opt” out of universal care. An educated guess leaves me believing that 95% of all Republicans would opt for the free, state care…which makes their rambling nothing more than senseless whining.Health care is not about money. It’s about quality of life, and the opportunity for the pursuit of happiness. It truly is a national security issue. Allowing the people who fund our Capitalism (i.e. all citizens)to one by one suffer poverty due to unaffordable health insurance is the surest way to welcome the end of Capitalism altogether. Then say hello to Mr. Hitler. Vast poverty breeds despotism.If we rid this country of health insurers, I am of the belief that overall, health care costs would be vastly reduced, indicating that we already have the money we need to do this.As for pharma, well, what division of any industry wants to be seen as the only greedy, heartless ass? I’d like to see how pharma would respond to our government eliminating health insurers due to their greed. I think pharma would suddenly be much more willing to negotiate and toe the line. Shame works.Incidentally, as a Financial Adviser, I sell health insurance to some of my clients, if they need it. I hate the stuff. I hate the companies, and I hate that my clients have to buy “protection” from a legalized mafia (ponzi scheme?)

Might help your cause if you used some semblance of logic. Roads to Health care?The comments you received were basically saying why should I, who is contributing to PAYING for things in society, contribute to those who do NOT pay (i.e. financially support) society? Your point about a home and a security force being misplaced priorities were not even pertinent to the argument!To “crack the nut” as you pointed out you referenced a view on abortion and life as your cracking the nut for charity supporting the poor?You logic (or lack thereof) is astounding. Try supporting your position (I’m inferring supporting the position the government should provide for the poor) with some data or at least a logical train of thought.I’d love to discuss it, however you’re all over the place and can’t seem to carry a point to logical fruition. FAIL.

I was military for 25 years and experienced “nationalized” healthcare. Your experience with it? I’m guessing none.Guess what? Even on that scale it’s not working. The government’s outsourced it and it’s slowly failing. Access is getting harder, treatment is getting worse and lines are about equal to the social security office lines. On a scale as small as that, even military health care is failing. How can anyone with half a brain expect it to work on a national scale when the government can’t even adequately run a far less complex system as Social Security.Sure it’s nice to live in la la land but what you’re asking for just isn’t workable. Your absurd comments”Imagine the savings to the taxpayer if defense contractors billed for services at cost. Or imagine how inexpensive healthcare would be if it was provided at cost.”belie your ignorant view of the world. Services at cost. Yeah right. That will last just long enough for companies to fold. Sorry, but profit is what makes the world go ’round.Just trying to do my part.

I would like, along with roads, fire departments, police (essential services for protection of life liberty and the pursuit) health care.I would also like my food, gasoline, utilities, mortgage, clothing also to be paid for. Throw in wiping my rear when I done using the can as well.The point is, where are you lib’s going to draw the line, at some point you guys gotta say this is ridiculous.

@Bob42: I LOVE when people say you have to draw the line somewhere. Yes. You do. I draw it before wiping your ass and after health care. Wow, how hard was that.@Navy: “The comments you received were basically saying why should I, who is contributing to PAYING for things in society, contribute to those who do NOT pay (i.e. financially support) society?” Well, yes–if you assume that people without healthcare are obviously not contributing anything to society and therefore that’s why they don’t have health care. But, as is evidenced by enigma4ever, that ain’t true.

@Bub42: Where to draw the line? Ask around. Ask any other developed country in the world. They have publicly-funded roads, publicly-funded police, and publicly-funded health care. No one has publicly-funded mortgages or rear-wiping.If you took your head out of the tiny, tiny patch of sand that it’s in for, like, one second you’d see that the US is light-years behind on this, and it’s selfish pigs like you that are keeping it from catching up.

Ah, self-servatives coming here to be exhibit A & B and prove Bob C’s point. Welcome boys, and thanks for being today’s wingtard spokemodels.

The comments you received were basically saying why should I, who is contributing to PAYING for things in society, contribute to those who do NOT pay (i.e. financially support) society?The people who are NOT paying are already getting gov’t health insurance via Medicare & Medicaid! You’re already paying for it with 1.25% of your gross wages.It’s the people who are working – 2 or 3 jobs, many of them – who can’t afford the insurance, either because the places they work can’t afford it or the outrageous amount of the premiums put it out of reach for them. All those small businesses that the GOP loves to kiss up to – they can’t afford to pay over $1000 a month per employee for insurance. They can’t.How does the logic work then? When those who work their asses off every day live in fear of a broken limb or another reason to visit the ER?Frankly, it’s a bit tiring to hear the people who hold down 2 or 3 or more part-time jobs, who pay their bills & their taxes, being referred to as non-contributing members of society, or as being lazy.

You fucking assclowns from the right piss me off with your lack of intelligence. Who do you think is paying for poor peoples health insurance right now? Do you think the homeless guy/illegal immigrant that is rushed to the ER is refused healthcare because he can’t afford it? (Yes, there are a few that are dropped off in alleys to die but most get some form of treatment.)The answer is you do! The hospitals and insurance companies rape you because they have to make up for the nonpayers.

I particularly like the comment from Lulu above… :”are a big piece of the problem and bear a great deal of fault but so are doctors, pharmas, hospitals, healthcare equipment & technology manufacturers, suppliers, nursing homes and you and I. If we don’t rethink the fundamentals of our entire healthcare system and collectively decide what we want it to do for us, reform is a wasted effort.”Nice positive attitude??? NURSES are to Blame ????Well , dearie- you can indeed kiss my ass- because you are Soooo ignorant- HOW the hell do Nurses have a damn thing to do with the Current Health Care Crisis ? Do you know any nurses ? all they do is care of people- and you have a Problem with that ? really…..Here’s the thing -Yes, Health Insurance Companies Dictating WHO and What is paid for – that is a problem….we ALL know it…so what ever Universe you live in reality must be bleary….Sadly we are the ONLY Modern ( cough) Country that has not come up with a Universal Nationalised Health Care System- and ironically the DC folks and even the Military ALL have Socialized Medicine already….and More than 50 Million People here do not have Health care or Health Insurance….pretty pathetic for a “Modern” Country…For anyone who says this is not a problem- they have not talked to any of their neighbors recently….People are losing Health care and Insurance daily right now…it is ALL around us….