Unnecessary Torture for An Unnecessary War

This goes a long way toward explaining why 70% of Americans thought Iraq was directly responsible for 9/11… and why the administration did nothing to disabuse them of that notion.

bush blew up frogs as a kid! cheney shot someone in the face in 2006! i’m absolutely terrified to find out everything we don’t know!

Seems to me that there’s a pretty simple course of action here: Prosecute everyone, from Bush/Cheney on down to the agents in the room, on a case-by-case basis.If prosecutors can prove that torture took place, which should be fairly easy at this point for hundreds of charges, let the defendants speak in their defense.If the agents honestly felt that they were operating legally within the bounds of the legal advice given them, then maybe, as Obama suggested, they should be found not guilty. If those who authorized the torture can show that for each given case that it was absolutely necessary to torture, that it produced information that was needed immediately, that saved lives, that couldn’t be gotten any other way, then sure, find them not guilty on that particular charge.Even I’ll concede that it’s not absolutely, positively, 100% impossible that torture could be justified. So if that highly, highly, highly improbable “Jack Bauer” situation arises, if there ever is the whole “ticking bomb in an unknown location” scenario, and the agent uses his discretion and tortures someone to save lives, he should still be prosecuted and he can defend his actions – if they were absolutely necessary, who would convict?But the “default” position, the bottom line is: Torture is illegal. If you do it, you go to jail. The onus is on the torturers and those who authorized torture to justify their actions – it’s not on the judicial system to justify prosecuting people who broke the law.

I am with you on this one. I just don’t know what it means for the future of Iraq, the US, Cheney, Bush, the CIA, Congress and the world.Do we pull out of Iraq and say, Sorry Cheney was a Dick?Do we send Iraq Cheney to do with as they will?International War Crimes Tribunal?Do we go all French Revolution on everyone involved in the “order”?Does the world ask for Bush and Cheney’s head?Can we finally shut down the fucking CIA or limit its role to nothing but intelligence gathering and not torturing, flaming the flames for more war, calling in Predator strikes?I guess what I am trying to say is, “WTF do we do now?”

This is the fear that Obama has:On one hand, we have particularly egregious actions to use any means necessary to, at a minimum, garner evidence of terrorist activities of the past, present, and future. Even if he did provide factual evidence of activities that lead to us staving off attacks, we still broke countless laws.The fact that we didn’t get reliable evidence from these interrogations makes these acts worse. On top of that, if there is solid evidence that these sessions were used, even in part, to justify the Iraq war then we are in for a day of reckoning.In that sense, the investigation is a must.However, on the other hand, we have an agenda that needs to get completed. Healthcare, EFCA, Education, Environmental, Education, and Economic changes need to be completed or else all of euphoria around Obama’s election would be for naught. Sure, we already see some areas where Obama is faltering but on major ticket items he is moving ahead. We are already much further ahead than we thought we would be in many areas.This trial will only hurt those efforts. I don’t see how these trials help the agenda that we need to accomplish in any way!

>>>”Do we send Iraq Cheney to do with as they will?”what sweet poetic justice that would be…

@MZ and @GItheJOE,I think the bi-partisan panel that President Obama is the next step forward. If we are going to proceed with Trials then we will absolutely need to get members of the GOP on board, regardless of how much we don’t like them. Helps politically to say that Both Democrats and Republicans are investigating this.I still fail to see how these trials will help America in the long run. Sure, we will understand what happened that lead us to commit these crimes BUT are you willing to sacrifice passing a decent Healthcare bill, etc. for that?This issue will only divide us, as it is doing now. You’ll have members of both parties feeling bitter and it will be harder to get them to the table to pass bills we need to get passed when just a short while ago we eviscorate them for supporting these policies.Everyone here seems to be forgetting that.

I personally can’t recommend what we should do now. The arguments are so good and solid for so many outcomes, and frankly I just don’t know.What I do know: we’re officially everything we’ve ever hated. We’re the bad guy in the spy movie. We’re the Empire.Also, this Jack Bauer reference bothers me b/c he has been captured and tortured on a number of occasions and has never given out honest, helpful information as a result. So in this fictional reference the right wants to keep rehashing, the torture works so long as it’s not us being tortured?

Liz Cheney was just on MSNBC.Summary: Liz Cheney is a dangerous fascist witch with no regard for the law or the constitution.She is a liar.O’Donnell gave a summary of her lies after she was done since Liz only allowed an interview with Noron. Noron tried to correct several of her lies, but lacked O’Donnell talent. Again, when Noron knows you are lying you are in deep deception mode.Liz Cheney needs to be waterboarded 184 times, or better yet 185 times since you get free crazy bread with 185 times.

@Chris KI disagree. I believe, like Obama says, what you’re presenting is a false choice. I strongly believe that is why Obama is deferring everything to the Justice Department. Obama doesn’t have to publicly push for, and wade in, the trials that would come about in this pursuit. Who, among Congress, will be against Obama’s agenda that isn’t already? I think this is one of those moments where something absolutely be acknowledged and addressed. Didn’t Boehner just acknowledge that the memos outlined torture? It is such a sensitive subject that it’s almost indefensible, despite the media spinning as much as they possibly can (while losing credibility with the public). Obama will not use up political capital because this isn’t really a debatable issue. In a strange way, I think it would be a distraction, while everything the administration wants to pass will easily go through.

This is a criminal conspiracy to go to war.

That is exactly what it is and that is exactly what I have been calling it.This was a criminal conspiracy at the highest level of government to justify a totally unnecessary invasion and occupation of a sovereign foreign nation. This is not a crime that can be ignored. If we do not prosecute the people responsible, then we are lawless hypocrites.The desire to invade Iraq was on the PNAC website in the 90s. They even said on that site that they would need a pearl harbor to motivate such an invasion. When those fascist obtained control of the white house, they immediately took steps to bring about their grand plan. The warnings about 9/11 were intentionally ignored to give them that ‘pearl harbor’ that they needed. Torture was just one small part of the overall conspiracy.

Holy Fucktwat!!!This is a fucking trap. I just realized the rogue Army of PTSD Iraq Veterans that haven’t been properly treated will not be able to comprehend what is going on and enlist into extremist groups. THIS IS A TRAP FOR THE LEFT!!! I AM SERIOUS!!It hurts a little to know that the War was absolute bullshit but add in the flavor of torturing people to make it alright is even worse. I have known the war was bullshit for a long time but there is A FUCKING HUGE population of Iraq Vets that won’t take this news very well. Thus giving them a reason to flip the fuck out. NO SHIT! Watch for the signs, I am.

Chris K:It helps America in the long run by, I dunno, enforcing the law?Let me ask you this: Under what circumstances is it acceptable for someone to commit a really serious crime and to not be prosecuted for it, even though there be plenty of evidence that they committed that crime?If I, an ordinary dude, tortured someone, or got someone else to torture someone, should I be prosecuted?OK, now I’m a cop, or a CIA agent, and I torture someone. Prosecute?Now I’m an ex-Vice President of the U.S. Should I be prosecuted for authorizing the torturing of someone when I was in office, or do you let me off because of my previous position?Now I’m an ex-Vice President, responsible for authorizing torture, AND the current President has an ambitious social agenda. Let me off now?Tell me: at what point did I cross the line between “duh, of course you should be arrested” and “gee, I dunno, we don’t want to open that can of worms, we should get the Republicans to agree”?How about now I’m an ex-Vice President, responsible for authorizing torture AND backing over a handicapped child with my car AND stealing twelve plasma TVs from a Best Buy, but the President has an ambitious social agenda and the Republicans have control of Congress. Do you prosecute?If the law doesn’t apply equally to everyone, regardless of what else is going on in the country or in the world, then we’re boned. Completely boned.

This trial will only hurt those efforts. I don’t see how these trials help the agenda that we need to accomplish in any way!Investigating torture isn’t something that we should get around to when it’s convenient. If no one is held to account for the crimes perpetuated on this country & this world by BushCo, none of the rest of the agenda would mean diddly-squat. If we’re going to have a country, then the Constitution, the base of our society, has to be repaired, or, as with a crumbling foundation, the whole thing will collapse.If the actions of the last administration are not brought to light, the poison will fester – this country will NEVER again be united. There will be those of us who will forever believe that the perpetrators should have been punished & those who think that torture “for a good cause” is acceptable.And “Justice is Blind” will be a thing of the past.

Well folks, this is yet another case of the conspiracy theorists being proved correct.It was all pulled out of the ass of the thinktank that half of bushes cabinet worked at.The Project for the New American Century.Look it up.They cooked up plans for invading iraq and plundering the treasury before bush was even inaugerated. Bush was their token puppet to place in office to get this all done.What comes next after this revelation that torture was used to get fake evidence to go into Iraq will be that 9/11 was part of the plan too. Im positive certain people are fearing for their lives right now how close this investigation is coming to that already.

TORTURE SERVES POLITICS, NOT INTELLIGENCE.