The Third Stimulus

During Japan’s long recession, they produced 10 stimulus bills.

During Japan’s long recession, they produced 10 stimulus bills.

What if the 3rd stimulus were a complete income tax holiday for everyone – and a progressive national sales tax substituted in? (By progressive I mean, higher taxes on luxury items, zero tax on fundamental necessities like staple foods)?I’m not in favor of a 3rd stimulus package like the last few. If there’s a 3rd, I’d want it to be strictly as federal grants – not given to the states at all, and I’d want them to be competitive, and perhaps another component JUST for venture capitalists – a matching fund perhaps.QT

What if the 3rd stimulus were a complete income tax holiday for everyone – and a progressive national sales tax substituted in? (By progressive I mean, higher taxes on luxury items, zero tax on fundamental necessities like staple foods)?I’m not in favor of a 3rd stimulus package like the last few. If there’s a 3rd, I’d want it to be strictly as federal grants – not given to the states at all, and I’d want them to be competitive, and perhaps another component JUST for venture capitalists – a matching fund perhaps.QT

Job creation is not working well for the general population. If you are a construction worker, many jobs have been created. This is good since it stimulates the economy and will ultimately create additional jobs besides the construction jobs. That isn’t happening yet. Job openings are very scarce across the board.The party of NO will also block anything designed to create jobs. They want us all unemployed with no health care and homeless. It’s obvious that’s what they want.Vern Buchanan is bitching about his local Chrysler Dealership being closed. He voted to have all of them close. Who does he think he’s fooling?

Job creation is not working well for the general population. If you are a construction worker, many jobs have been created. This is good since it stimulates the economy and will ultimately create additional jobs besides the construction jobs. That isn’t happening yet. Job openings are very scarce across the board.The party of NO will also block anything designed to create jobs. They want us all unemployed with no health care and homeless. It’s obvious that’s what they want.Vern Buchanan is bitching about his local Chrysler Dealership being closed. He voted to have all of them close. Who does he think he’s fooling?

QT -How will your plan be of any help to those who are out of work and can’t get a new job because there are none? I don’t think you realize how many people have been out of work for YEARS. Don’t lose your job, you may never get another. The true unemployment rate is 20% or higher. For every four people working there is one looking for and not finding a job. Our local news has talked to organizations that are hiring and they are told that for every open job at least 300 people apply for it. I don’t know why people don’t realize that this is, in fact, a depression. You can’t even get a job at McDonald’s right now. They have a waiting list.

QT -How will your plan be of any help to those who are out of work and can’t get a new job because there are none? I don’t think you realize how many people have been out of work for YEARS. Don’t lose your job, you may never get another. The true unemployment rate is 20% or higher. For every four people working there is one looking for and not finding a job. Our local news has talked to organizations that are hiring and they are told that for every open job at least 300 people apply for it. I don’t know why people don’t realize that this is, in fact, a depression. You can’t even get a job at McDonald’s right now. They have a waiting list.

An income tax holiday is a great idea. I also think the federal budget could use some radical cuts in military spending, even if only temporarily.I’m interested in the notion of national sales tax, but I wonder if it would be feasible to replace the income tax. I’ve read about the FairTax and the criticisms of it seem pretty solid.

An income tax holiday is a great idea. I also think the federal budget could use some radical cuts in military spending, even if only temporarily.I’m interested in the notion of national sales tax, but I wonder if it would be feasible to replace the income tax. I’ve read about the FairTax and the criticisms of it seem pretty solid.

Git – It would be a help by creating a pile of money that people would spend, not unlike the “rebates” of the Bush years but grander in scale. It would create jobs for that purpose.Obama has already extended unemployment benefits. For those underemployed or having given up on finding a job, I don’t know what would specifically address those issues beyond a macroeconomic recovery. As the economy improves, jobs will be created.In the campaign Obama talked about green technology, and I wonder (because I haven’t read anything about it recently) what happened to the plans to invest massively in renewable energy? That, I think, should be the priority in terms of the recovery – mind-boggling public works: energy, high-speed rail, etc.

Git – It would be a help by creating a pile of money that people would spend, not unlike the “rebates” of the Bush years but grander in scale. It would create jobs for that purpose.Obama has already extended unemployment benefits. For those underemployed or having given up on finding a job, I don’t know what would specifically address those issues beyond a macroeconomic recovery. As the economy improves, jobs will be created.In the campaign Obama talked about green technology, and I wonder (because I haven’t read anything about it recently) what happened to the plans to invest massively in renewable energy? That, I think, should be the priority in terms of the recovery – mind-boggling public works: energy, high-speed rail, etc.

Klaus -While all you say seems plausible, it totally ignores the reality of the current US economy. A tax holiday will not produce jobs. People will use the money freed up to pay down their debt which has now become unbearable because of runaway interest rates. Bankruptcies and foreclosures are still setting records because people have become overwhelmed by increasing interest rates. The recent law changes are not retroactive and more people will be victimized before this is over. The economy is still getting worse but the decline is slowing. Krugman said the stimulus was not big enough and it looks like he was correct. The extension to the length of unemployment compensation is only for those currently receiving unemployment. Mine ran out in April of 2007. The extensions did not help me they helped those that came after. The economy will not improve until there is a job for everyone that wants one.I have a better suggestion on the tax situation. Let’s eliminate income tax and capital gains tax and use nothing but regressive taxes. We could double the payroll tax and have a 10% federal sales tax. If we do that we can concentrate what little wealth remains in the middle class to the fabulously affluent in just a couple of years. Everyone will be unemployed because all jobs will be shipped off-shore and thus have no health care, no homes, no income, and they can all go away and die and the US can be one big golf course for the Corporate elitists.Sounds great. Wonderful plan. I love redistribution of wealth. Reagan: The great American Socialist loved redistribution of wealth.

Klaus -While all you say seems plausible, it totally ignores the reality of the current US economy. A tax holiday will not produce jobs. People will use the money freed up to pay down their debt which has now become unbearable because of runaway interest rates. Bankruptcies and foreclosures are still setting records because people have become overwhelmed by increasing interest rates. The recent law changes are not retroactive and more people will be victimized before this is over. The economy is still getting worse but the decline is slowing. Krugman said the stimulus was not big enough and it looks like he was correct. The extension to the length of unemployment compensation is only for those currently receiving unemployment. Mine ran out in April of 2007. The extensions did not help me they helped those that came after. The economy will not improve until there is a job for everyone that wants one.I have a better suggestion on the tax situation. Let’s eliminate income tax and capital gains tax and use nothing but regressive taxes. We could double the payroll tax and have a 10% federal sales tax. If we do that we can concentrate what little wealth remains in the middle class to the fabulously affluent in just a couple of years. Everyone will be unemployed because all jobs will be shipped off-shore and thus have no health care, no homes, no income, and they can all go away and die and the US can be one big golf course for the Corporate elitists.Sounds great. Wonderful plan. I love redistribution of wealth. Reagan: The great American Socialist loved redistribution of wealth.

Bob, I love your stuff but I don’t think we need a third stimulus right now. I really am not comfortable with the massive deficit spending…I understand it’s necessary from time to time but I don’t think we’ve even spent all the money from the last one yet. And I don’t trust politicians to go back and pay off these debts we’re creating…do you?

One other thing I’d like to ask is where is this supposed credit crisis? Did it ever really exist? If there is a crisis in credit, why is the prime rate still right around 0%? Why won’t a savings and loan pay me more than 1% annually to deposit my money with them? Why are courts reducing people’s mortgage rates from an already miniscule 6% interest rate to below 4%? If you can’t afford to pay 6% on your outstanding debt, you really shouldn’t have that much goddamned debt, is my opinion. Try to borrow money in the third world…rates of 50% annually are on the LOW end of the spectrum.

The thing we need to turn this economy around, in my opinion, is a move away from this easy-credit bullshit to a place where loans reflect the actual cost of borrowing, and people earn actual interest on their savings. It is no wonder nobody wants to save and people borrow beyond their means…it’s a gravy train everyone wants to hop on before it leaves the station.

Bob, I love your stuff but I don’t think we need a third stimulus right now. I really am not comfortable with the massive deficit spending…I understand it’s necessary from time to time but I don’t think we’ve even spent all the money from the last one yet. And I don’t trust politicians to go back and pay off these debts we’re creating…do you?

One other thing I’d like to ask is where is this supposed credit crisis? Did it ever really exist? If there is a crisis in credit, why is the prime rate still right around 0%? Why won’t a savings and loan pay me more than 1% annually to deposit my money with them? Why are courts reducing people’s mortgage rates from an already miniscule 6% interest rate to below 4%? If you can’t afford to pay 6% on your outstanding debt, you really shouldn’t have that much goddamned debt, is my opinion. Try to borrow money in the third world…rates of 50% annually are on the LOW end of the spectrum.

The thing we need to turn this economy around, in my opinion, is a move away from this easy-credit bullshit to a place where loans reflect the actual cost of borrowing, and people earn actual interest on their savings. It is no wonder nobody wants to save and people borrow beyond their means…it’s a gravy train everyone wants to hop on before it leaves the station.

Silly: Trust me – the perenially un- and underemployment problem is one I live with daily. My life is consistently hampered by precisely this problem. So I know what you’re talking about.But – I live with the problem – I don’t personally have the problem… And since that’s the case – having more of my money available as disposable income would greatly benefit me, and those who are more or less dependent on my income. It would also benefit those who are unemployed, since their benefits are taxed (or rather – employer-paid unemployment benefits are). And lets keep in mind that we haven’t finished spending the stimulus package yet – so this is on TOP of existing stimulus – it’s not an “either/or.”QT

Silly: Trust me – the perenially un- and underemployment problem is one I live with daily. My life is consistently hampered by precisely this problem. So I know what you’re talking about.But – I live with the problem – I don’t personally have the problem… And since that’s the case – having more of my money available as disposable income would greatly benefit me, and those who are more or less dependent on my income. It would also benefit those who are unemployed, since their benefits are taxed (or rather – employer-paid unemployment benefits are). And lets keep in mind that we haven’t finished spending the stimulus package yet – so this is on TOP of existing stimulus – it’s not an “either/or.”QT

Silly – you’re talking about doubling the payroll tax on top of a regressive sales tax. I specified a progressive sales tax and a temporary freeze on any other kinds of tax.Also – you skipped over the part where I said – let’s have a federal competition for funds – so that money doesn’t get diverted by state budgetary needs, and you skipped over the venture capital part – the part where new small business ventures would get funding…QT

Silly – you’re talking about doubling the payroll tax on top of a regressive sales tax. I specified a progressive sales tax and a temporary freeze on any other kinds of tax.Also – you skipped over the part where I said – let’s have a federal competition for funds – so that money doesn’t get diverted by state budgetary needs, and you skipped over the venture capital part – the part where new small business ventures would get funding…QT

I really am not comfortable with the massive deficit spending.

Where was your protest while we were burning on trillion dollars on an illegal and unecessary invasion and occupation of Iraq?I’m glad the economy is working for you. What do you suggest should happen to the people who can’t find jobs? Should we do you a favor and drop dead?It must be nice to live in a cocoon and ignore the misery around you.

I really am not comfortable with the massive deficit spending.

Where was your protest while we were burning on trillion dollars on an illegal and unecessary invasion and occupation of Iraq?I’m glad the economy is working for you. What do you suggest should happen to the people who can’t find jobs? Should we do you a favor and drop dead?It must be nice to live in a cocoon and ignore the misery around you.

Silly – that was kinda harsh. You don’t know anything about illogical’s personal circumstances, do you?Or, do you? Because – that was kinda harsh.QT

Silly – that was kinda harsh. You don’t know anything about illogical’s personal circumstances, do you?Or, do you? Because – that was kinda harsh.QT

QT -The policies being suggested are the same trickle down nonsense that created the problem we now have. Look at where the wealth is concentrated and look at who are having the problems. I don’t see how regressive tax changes are going to do anything but make things worse. I am tired of people telling me that making the already wealthy, lots wealthier is going to magically make my life better. I’ve been trickled down on since 1981 and its gone downhill the entire time. I often use exaggeration to make a point, but I didn’t really need to exaggerate here. Things really are *that* bad. I am very glad the construction jobs are up, but I see hundreds of unemployed homeless people every day standing at red lights with signs saying “I’ll take any job you have.” May people don’t seem to realize that we even have a problem. Pat Buchanan thinks everything’s fine.I am not averse to consideration of some of your suggestions. I’ll just point out that the same folks talking about deficit spending being bad are the same people talking a increasing the deficit with a tax holiday. I can’t help but notice the blatant contradiction.Spending to improve the economy is risky deficit spending, but illegal wars are not. Whatever.What we need are jobs out here. Now, not next year. Now.

QT -The policies being suggested are the same trickle down nonsense that created the problem we now have. Look at where the wealth is concentrated and look at who are having the problems. I don’t see how regressive tax changes are going to do anything but make things worse. I am tired of people telling me that making the already wealthy, lots wealthier is going to magically make my life better. I’ve been trickled down on since 1981 and its gone downhill the entire time. I often use exaggeration to make a point, but I didn’t really need to exaggerate here. Things really are *that* bad. I am very glad the construction jobs are up, but I see hundreds of unemployed homeless people every day standing at red lights with signs saying “I’ll take any job you have.” May people don’t seem to realize that we even have a problem. Pat Buchanan thinks everything’s fine.I am not averse to consideration of some of your suggestions. I’ll just point out that the same folks talking about deficit spending being bad are the same people talking a increasing the deficit with a tax holiday. I can’t help but notice the blatant contradiction.Spending to improve the economy is risky deficit spending, but illegal wars are not. Whatever.What we need are jobs out here. Now, not next year. Now.

OK, fair enough. I just want to say the following:1. I didn’t say anything about a regressive tax, nor a regressive tax cut, nor did I propose creating a deficit. I proposed a progressive sales tax to replace income tax during an income tax holiday. My suspicion is that sales taxes are more effective in raising revenues, and that we might like them better if we are genuinely unburdened from income taxes, and that we won’t want to go back to income taxation.2. I’m not suggesting a flat sales tax, which would indeed be regressive. I’m suggesting that some things are luxuries and should be taxed at a higher rate, and that some things are absolute bare essentials, and shouldn’t be taxed at all.3. I have a friend on another site, who is very conservative, very much against deficit spending, who is out of work, and being foreclosed upon. The fact that he thinks the way he does does not in any way suggest that the current economy is working for him – quite the opposite. His assessment of how to fix the economy is different from the President’s and perhaps from yours, but he’s hurting as much as anyone.4. I’m sorry that you’re hurting. Me too. Times are hard, and sometimes it feels to me like – whatever works. That’s easily one of the main reasons I have supported President Obama – he sticks with the “What works?” philosophy, which is very comforting, when I personally need solutions, and not grand ideas.Anyway – if you won’t mind, I will certainly include you in my prayers. QT

OK, fair enough. I just want to say the following:1. I didn’t say anything about a regressive tax, nor a regressive tax cut, nor did I propose creating a deficit. I proposed a progressive sales tax to replace income tax during an income tax holiday. My suspicion is that sales taxes are more effective in raising revenues, and that we might like them better if we are genuinely unburdened from income taxes, and that we won’t want to go back to income taxation.2. I’m not suggesting a flat sales tax, which would indeed be regressive. I’m suggesting that some things are luxuries and should be taxed at a higher rate, and that some things are absolute bare essentials, and shouldn’t be taxed at all.3. I have a friend on another site, who is very conservative, very much against deficit spending, who is out of work, and being foreclosed upon. The fact that he thinks the way he does does not in any way suggest that the current economy is working for him – quite the opposite. His assessment of how to fix the economy is different from the President’s and perhaps from yours, but he’s hurting as much as anyone.4. I’m sorry that you’re hurting. Me too. Times are hard, and sometimes it feels to me like – whatever works. That’s easily one of the main reasons I have supported President Obama – he sticks with the “What works?” philosophy, which is very comforting, when I personally need solutions, and not grand ideas.Anyway – if you won’t mind, I will certainly include you in my prayers. QT