About Mandates

You know what’s weird? A single-payer supporter suggesting that mandates are bad. Oddly, I’ve witnessed more than a few very progressive single-payer people inexplicably lashing out about the mandates in the House reform bill. One of whom is pushing for the entire reform effort to be abandoned in part due to the mandates.

Now, I hasten to reiterate that I ultimately support a single-payer system, but in the current political and economic climate a public insurance plan would be the best and most realistic path to achieving single-payer.

However, there’s a misunderstanding floating around that single-payer would somehow be free or optional or completely divorced from profit-making. In reality, it’s none of the above. Single-payer would be “mandatory” insofar as we’d all have to help to finance it in some way, via higher taxes or premiums. And as with most other single-payer systems, the “payer” — in this case, the federal government — would still be paying private for-profit companies. Hospitals, doctors, equipment suppliers, and, yes, evil drug companies.

Of course the government would be negotiating lower rates, but the government would still be paying/subsidizing for-profit industries in the healthcare sector. That’s how it works. Unless we were to choose the British system and nationalize everything. But good luck getting that one through Congress.

By the way, without mandates, premiums will inflate regardless of whether we’re dealing with a mixed public/private insurance system or a single-payer system. One of the reasons being that many people will game the system — only enrolling when they’re sick or injured and bailing when they’ve recuperated. The subsequent shortfall in the fund would have to be recovered somehow. And so, higher premiums.

Put another way, you can’t ban discrimination based on pre-existing conditions and have lower/competitive rates without mandates. Medicare, for example, has to take everyone 65 or older. And you can’t decline Medicare coverage, but then suddenly enroll after you become sick. So Medicare is, by in large, mandatory (you can opt out, but you lose your Social Security benefits as a penalty).

I know. On the surface, mandates still sound scary. But as it stands right now, there’s a public option as an escape hatch to avoid the compulsory hand-out to the private cartel. If you’re poor or struggling, there will be subsidies to help you. And if you’re receiving insurance through your employer, the mandates are irrelevant.

Meanwhile, there are indeed problems with the House bill. Rates ought to be tied to Medicare, and there needs to be a way to prevent the private exchange plans from dumping sick people into the public option. But what we have right now is a solid base on which to build, and no matter how you slice the House bill, it’s infinitely better than nothing.

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  • roxsteady

    What I’d like to see is Wyden’s idea of opening up the public option to everyone. This would increase the pool and force rates at private insurance companies to be lowered.It would also prevent them from gaming the system by dumping all of the people who are sick or have preexisting conditions into the public option, which would increase the rate of those premiums. So, even if your employer does provide insurance, if you don’t like it, you should also be allowed to switch to the public option.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    I agree, Rox. The consolation is that the House bill phases in public option availability much more rapidly than the Senate bill.

  • http://nanotyrnns.blogspot.com/ Nanotyrannus

    I’d love to see the PO open to everyone as well. My employer offers company-provided insurance (and in fact let us know this year that they would not be increasing premiums) so I’m not sure if HCR would even effect rates/services there. I’d like to have the PO to fall back on.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    @Nano:As Anthony Weiner said on Countdown the other night: a little competition is better than no competition at all. My hope is that once the PO is passed, Congress will immediately set about repairing some of the holes.

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    It’s unfortunate, but mandates are necessary. I hate that we settled for a Public Option. We needed to do this right the first time, and instead, we settled.Bob, insurance rates for EVERYONE will skyrocket. With mandates, we are forcing insurance companies to cover people that they not only do not want, but CANNOT cover at any price. “High Risk” health insurance has never worked; it has broken every company that attempted it. Insurers aren’t stupid; they aren’t going to take on business they cannot mitigate by passing the cost on to everyone else while still maintaining a healthy profit margin. If it could be done, it would have been done by now, and the insurance companies would have pushed for the legislation to mandate it years ago.Once again, a political party settles for the lowest common denominator. The gladhanders win. They can pass this bill, and in a year, they can brag about how they “saved” the healthcare industry. A year after they are all sworn in, the cracks in the plan will appear. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if your party became so balless as to add an ammendment to this bill dictating that its provisions are not put into effect until after next year’s elections.We should call Vegas and find out what the odds on that are.A Public option was necessary the moment your party settled for less than what was really necessary. That doesn’t mean it is a good plan. It’s just the one they think they can sell, which makes them gutless. “Let’s try to take the path of least resistance” should be your party’s slogan.

  • eve

    Thanks for some solid information I did not know.I agree there is much in the House bill to build on and it would be terrible to dump the whole thing because some of the provisions are not so good. Ed Schultz said on one of his shows we should just wait till next year and go at it again. That is nuts. Health insurance reform could easily be toast for another 10 to 20 years if we don’t pass something now.As a liberal Democrat I also don’t want us to go the way of the GOP where every vote or proposal has to be one way or a person is a RINO. By the far right demanding lock step adherence to their ideals, the GOP is disintegrating.We could see that on our side of the aisle too if there is no room for moderates and conservatives in our party. We aren’t a nation of one ideal or one way of doing things. At least we shouldn’t be. No growth, no change and no progression without room for varying positions and philosophies. Compromise is necessary if we want to be inclusive. Reform isn’t a one time event. Best to start somewhere than to not start.Sometimes we envy the ability of the GOP to make their members vote in lock step. We shouldn’t. As we have seen, it is a terrible way to govern. It’s grossly ineffective and it is destroying that party.

  • http://nanotyrnns.blogspot.com/ Nanotyrannus

    PPP (welcome back) wrote:

    “”High Risk” health insurance has never worked; it has broken every company that attempted it.”

    My sincere hope is that this drives them all right out of business. Let them go into congreves and inflammable powders. They have no real purpose and no right to exist.

  • http://nanotyrnns.blogspot.com/ Nanotyrannus

    I’ll have to research it but I thought I’d read that the provisions in the bill which would forbid the insurance industry to deny coverage for preexisting conditions would not apply to employer-run insurance plans. And if I’m unable to choose the PO because there is insurance available from my employer, I’ll be right back to square one.Again, I have to do a little more reading. And I don’t plan to be where I’m employed long term.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    PPP wrote:>>>We needed to do this right the first time, and instead, we settled.Indeed. But single-payer was never viable. None of the three major Dem candidates proposed it, and there weren’t the congressional votes for it — especially during a deep recession, and despite the president’s popularity. So in terms of what was practicable, the public option is a strong step in the direction of single-payer.Knowing that it’s the best path and most realistic path to single-payer, how can you possibly say it’s gutless?

  • Jan

    From Huff PostThe budget office estimated that about 6 million people would sign up for the public option in 2019, when the House bill is fully phased in. That represents about 2 percent of a total of 282 million Americans under age 65. (Older people are covered through Medicare.)Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/01/public-option-plan-will-c_n_341408.html2019? What i am afraid of is the po will mostly take in high risk or sick people in initially and drive up costs. For a po to actually work, there needs to be a big pool with many healthy people in it (and paying into it) to offset the high cost of caring for the sick and chronically sick people.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    By the way, Stranahan is very wrong about a “25% premium increase” in his video. The premium clause he presents in the video is from Page 22 of the House bill — in a section about the HIGH-RISK POOL PROGRAM which will provide immediate coverage for certain patients beginning two months from today. This section of the bill isn’t about existing premiums or the public option. Also, I don’t know where he gets 25%. In other words, Lee misread the bill and should probably correct his video.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Jan wrote:>>>>2019? What i am afraid of is the po will mostly take in high risk or sick people in initially and drive up costs. For a po to actually work, there needs to be a big pool with many healthy people in it (and paying into it) to offset the high cost of caring for the sick and chronically sick people.You’re right. Again, this is the case for single-payer. Covering everyone = mandates = lower costs.But don’t forget how reforms like this tend to work. Once the thing is set up, it’s incrementally expanded as we go. It was this way with Social Security, SCHIP, Medicaid, and Medicare. Regarding the former, FDR’s Social Security didn’t cover all kinds of people — clergy, farmers, government employees, the self-employed, railroad workers, domestic workers, etc, etc.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    Bob wrote:

    However, there’s a misunderstanding floating around that single-payer would somehow be free.

    BINGO! While the right has their fringe of gun-toting, illiterate testicle-baggers, we have our fringe of hippies who want everything for free with absolutely zero understanding of fiduciary mechanics. Or basically the hand-out crowd that makes all look like welfare queens.Also, “Kill the bill?” Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, let’s kill a major stepping stone in health care reform that finally tackles the deadly practice of pre-existing conditions and recision because it’s not a rainbow wonderland of free medicine and – OH NOES! – actually attempts to keep itself funded. I don’t want to turn this into a Lee-bashing thread, but seriously, how high does he get making these things?

  • Allonfla

    @PPP: This isn’t about guts or no guts. Single Payer didn’t have a chance. The candidates knew it and so do the Dems in Congress. No disrespect, but it makes no sense to push for Single Payer now when the PO can’t even get enough votes. There have been ads, petitions, low poll numbers, etc. and STILL we can’t get a unanimous vote in favor of the PO. And these guys aren’t withholding because they want single payer.Getting controversial legislation passed isn’t just about guts, it’s about timing and involves a lot of politics. If the Left wants to implement Single Payer, you have to first make the vast majority of Americans understand what it is and get them to want it. And that takes time and serious team work – Obama can’t convince people on his own with a few speeches.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    Allonfla wrote:

    Getting controversial legislation passed isn’t just about guts, it’s about timing and involves a lot of politics. If the Left wants to implement Single Payer, you have to first make the vast majority of Americans understand what it is and get them to want it.

    Exactly. Get this going and let Americans start to experience life without the crippling fear of worrying about getting sick. This bill is a huge stepping stone that will only improve as time goes on.However, health care reform will crash and burn if liberal teabaggers start campaigning against Democrats in their misguided crusade for SINGLE PAYER NOW! All that will lead to is Republicans getting into office and drowning HCR in the bathtub before both feet are even in the door.

  • Stranahan

    Bob,I didn’t misread the bill. It’s hard writing a 30 second spot – little room for nuance.My point in the video is this – you wouldn’t think it’s helping the homeless to force them to pay rent at a 25% higher rate or face a fine. That would, in face, hurt them.I’m s saying – same thing here. Forcing the currently uninsured to buy insurance at a 25% higher rate doesn’t help them. Or specifically – it doesn’t help people like me and you, Bob – which is who it’s effecting.As it is, I rewrote that script six times before I finished. Since you mentioned it, I wonder if I could have made the distinction clearer but ultimately it doesn’t matter.Rates are going to go up for everyone with this bill. That’s just a fact. The PO will be more expensive than privae insurance with this bill.As to mandates – I supported Barack Obama. He opposed mandates.You know better, Bob. There’s a huge difference between a ‘mandate’ and a Mandate. Single payer is not a mandate – it’s an entitlement program.Nobody thinks this stuff is free. That’s not the question. The issue is – how to pay for it? Taxes and a public, automatic system is better than a mandate to send a check to private insurance companies or face penalties.This is a fatally flawed bill that is going to kill any hope of reform by creating a suck-ass public option that will prove the Republican’s point. “Look – it’s more expensive!” It’s a public option that is destined to fail, not expand and flourish.It’s a ruse, Bob – and you’re doing your readers a disservice by not being a lote more critical about sell out to corporate interests that it represents.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    @Lee:Your video is factually inaccurate, Lee. You misread the bill, and specifically the section that includes item (g) on Page 22. It’s about the HIGH-RISK POOL — not the public option or private plans.Single-payer would force everyone to buy insurance. “Entitlement program” is a broad definition (invented by the right). “Mandate” is a specific feature within the system. Good golly, I can’t believe I have to spell that out.You are factually wrong and you should correct your video.

  • Stranahan

    It’s not inaccurate. If you’re trying to solve the problem of people without insurance, you don’t do it by forcing them to buy insurance that’s 25% higher. That’s the point the video makes and that’s accurate.If there a wider issue than the video covers? Sure – but like I said, 30 seconds. I’m happy if the video causes more discussion.And no – single payer doesn’t force everyone to buy insurance from private companies and you know it. That’s what the mandate in the House bill does, except for the small percentage who can pay more for the shitty public option the bill has.We don’t have a mandate for police protection. We have it as part of the social contract and we pay for it with taxes. It works better than if we privatized the police and then required people to write checks for their protection or face fines.You’re defending the system of insurance companies here. And I know you hate them, so it’s weird.

  • Terri

    Bob, you are wrong on this and Lee is correct.There is no “force buying” with Single Payer.There is no “mandate” as it is with the current Insurance Entitlement Bill (aka Public Option) — it would be a service provided via taxes, much like the public school system. I don’t get a “bill” or pay a “premium” for the “free” public school/free education but it’s paid for collectively, via taxes.Stop providing misinformation, Bob, that Single Payer forces everyone to “buy insurance” —– in fact it ELIMINATES insurance the “one payer” is the government.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee wrote:>>>It’s not inaccurate. If you’re trying to solve the problem of people without insurance, you don’t do it by forcing them to buy insurance that’s 25% higher. That’s the point the video makes and that’s accurate.IT’S NOT! Lee, your number is from a section about immediate assistance to a high-risk pool of people. Your video and the accompanying text on your blogs implies that everyone will be paying 25% more.>>>I’m happy if the video causes more discussion.Even if the discussion is about how you’re factually inaccurate?>>>And no – single payer doesn’t force everyone to buy insurance from private companies and you know it.I didn’t say “private companies.” Single-payer would force everyone to pay into a system. So I ask you — what’s the difference between a compulsory single-payer system and the present HCR mandate with a public option?>>>That’s what the mandate in the House bill does, except for the small percentage who can pay more for the shitty public option the bill has.You simply don’t understand the system, Lee, and you don’t understand the legislation. Who is the public option tasked with helping right away? The people who don’t have insurance and small business owners. Those people can either buy a private plan or, as they would in a single-payer system, they can buy into the public option. Everyone else ALREADY HAS INSURANCE! So for them, the mandate is irrelevant.>>>We don’t have a mandate for police protection. We have it as part of the social contract and we pay for it with taxes.And taxes are mandatory. Social Security is mandatory. Medicare is mandatory. You are very confused.>>>You’re defending the system of insurance companies here. And I know you hate them, so it’s weird.Huh-whah? And you’re arguing against something that you misinterpreted. Just man up and admit that you screwed up the main point of your video.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Terri wrote:>>>>There is no “force buying” with Single Payer.Public health insurance in France is compulsory. Same with England and Canada. You can buy private insurance if you want to, but participation in the public insurance plan is mandatory. And other than in England, single-payer *pays* for-profit industries. Not exclusively, but they do.Sorry, Terri, but thems the facts.

  • Stranahan

    Bob – you know the difference between ‘mandatory’ and ‘mandates’. And you know that candidate Obama opposed mandates. It’s NOT the same thing and I don’t know whyt you’re pretending it is.It’s the same as your bullshit straw man about people expecting it to be ‘free’. No, Bob – nobody who supports single payer thinks it will be free. No. Body.We don’t have a police mandate or a fire mandate or a road mandate that fines people if they don’t have private, for profit companies a payment. That’s what this bill does. It’s a huge financial boon the insurance industry. It will further entrench them. It won’t lead to a better system.That’s why this bill is fundamentally flawed. You can bat around straw men all day but you’re not addressing the issue – this bill was forged on compromise and broken campaign promises. It will raise rates for everyone – right? Outside of the cloister of this blog, progressives ARE seeing the problems with this bill.Why aren’t you public supporting Dennis Kucinich’s state single payer amendment, Bob? Why not post some videos from Ed Schultz?

  • Terri

    Yes— participation is mandatory.Do not confuse mandatory participation with “mandates” as in “forced purchase” or fined.Your statements are very misleading.Mandates/Mandatory have different uses here.

  • Terri

    Where’d my reply to you go, Bob? I responded and posted.

  • http://www.mobilizeforhealthecare.org Terri

    Exactly, Lee…And where are the videos about the Mobilization for Health care?www.mobilizeforhealthcare.orgSchultz is doing a better job at holding Obama accountable than Bob — yet Bob, you promote what you offer here as an alternative to the main stream media!In some cases, you are so in the tank for Obama the main stream media (Ed Schultz) roughs around Obama more and holds his feet to the fire, just as Obama asked us to do during the campaign: to hold him accountable.Why go to your blog post when I can get a greater journalistic challenge on the cable news network?

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:>>>Bob – you know the difference between ‘mandatory’ and ‘mandates’.No I don’t, because there isn’t any difference.I know that the House bill makes it compulsory/mandatory for those without insurance to buy insurance. And I know that in single-payer systems it’s compulsory/mandatory to buy insurance.>>>We don’t have a police mandate or a fire mandate or a road mandate that fines people if they don’t have private, for profit companies a payment. That’s what this bill does.To the extent that I understood that sentence, we are mandated to pay taxes for fire and police, and we are mandated to pay taxes and tolls for roads. If we don’t, we’re penalized.Now, if you don’t want to pay a private insurer in the new system, you can choose the co-op or the public option in the exchange. The premiums will either be paid via taxes or on a routine payment basis. No one without insurance will be forced into a private plan. NO ONE.As for “free,” well, yes I have talked with several people who expected it to be free. Likewise, they thought healthcare was free in France, Canada, etc. But that was only a minor point in my post and I’ll gladly retract it if you would at least correct the fact that your video is inaccurate and misleading.Adding… Lee and Terri are suggesting that there’s a substantive difference between the words “mandate,” “mandatory” and “forced to buy.” How does one debate against this point? I’m at a total loss.

  • Stranahan

    If you’re confused about this mandate issue – please read RJ Eskow…No! “Mandatory universal health insurance” is not a progressive position, as we explained here in 2007. And it’s not even “universal,” as we explained in early 2008. That’s why Obama was able to score some points against his opponents in the primaries by rejecting mandates.Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/how-progressive-groupthin_b_280134.html

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:”If you’re confused about this mandate issue – please read RJ Eskow…”I’m not confused.RJ wrote that piece in early September. When the Baucus plan was announced, I also wrote a piece about how mandates without a public option was criminal. But the House bill has mandates and a public option.By the way, “confused” is arguing that there’s a semantic difference between “mandatory insurance,” “mandates” and “forced to buy.”

  • Stranahan

    I mean – seriously, Bob – you talk about inaccurate. You are giving your readers totally bogus and wrong information about mandates here, as RJ’s piece makes very clear.Candidate Obama certainly understand the difference. I’m sure you did at one point, too. There’s a big difference in both the theory and practice. If there was no difference, what was Obama attacking Hillary based on? For you to flat out say there’s no difference really disqualifies you on the subject. You’re that wrong.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    Lee:RJ Eskow’s post is from two whole months ago and it rails against mandates unless there’s a public option:

    How? How could the president get the idea that an individual mandate, especially without a public option, was a “goody” for progressives?

    Welcome to late October where – Surprise! – there’s a public option. Case closed.Would you like to pull more irrelevant posts from months ago to support your arguments?

  • http://www.mobilizeforhealthecare.org Terri

    >>>>>And I know that in single-payer systems it’s compulsory/mandatory to buy insurance.______________Bob, there is NO “insurance” in Single Payer.It is two things only:1. The service provider2. The payorAnd, of course the terms “mandate” and “mandatory” are used to mean different things in this political debate.Mandate is used to FORCE PURCHASE (to get a bill, have a premium and be made to pay it) — BUT there is no regulation of the premiums and they vary from carrier to carrier, unregulated — yet people are obligated to pay.With Single Payer it is “all in” and standardized. I don’t get a bill in the mail that I ‘must pay’ or there is penalty.

  • Stranahan

    That’s not the point of RJ’s piece. His piece is mainly about the groupthink the pushed the idea of ‘mandates’.You made the claim that single payer is the same as the ‘mandate’ system because they are both ‘mandatory’. That’s totally wrong in a crude way – because the words sound the same.No. There are two different ideas. You can make arguements for and against both – but they are DIFFERENT.You said they aren’t different. That’s crazy wrong.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    How about this, Lee. How about YOU describe the difference. Because I just read RJ’s column again, and nowhere in it does he write about the difference between “mandates,” “mandatory” and “forced to buy.”>>>You are giving your readers totally bogus and wrong information about mandates hereHow so? I mean, in your own words, how so? What specifically have I written that’s inaccurate about mandates?

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    Terri, aren’t you arguing semantics here? There is no private insurance in Single Payer, But isn’t Medicare “insurance” with the government being the non-profit middle man?

  • http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=65905268&ref=profile Mike H.

    High risk pool starts on 16 and I can’t find % rates anywhere.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Terri wrote:>>>>Mandate is used to FORCE PURCHASE (to get a bill, have a premium and be made to pay it) — BUT there is no regulation of the premiums and they vary from carrier to carrier, unregulated — yet people are obligated to pay.*Bob shoots self in head*In France you are FORCED TO PURCHASE the national health insurance plan! In Medicare you are FORCED TO PURCHASE the Medicare insurance plan!

  • http://www.mobilizeforhealthecare.org Terri

    Carl — yes that is correct. Key word is “non-profit”.Too bad Bob shot himself in the head. I think he willed his blog to Lee, given his demise!

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    @ Terri – Well I never thought that Bob was talking about anything else. We are all being “mandated” to pay for single payer health insurance, AKA Medicare, through our taxes.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Mike H wrote:>>>High risk pool starts on 16 and I can’t find % rates anywhere.The line Lee is talking about is section (g) of the HIGH RISK POOL ASSISTANCE provision.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Terri:>>>>Carl — yes that is correct. Key word is “non-profit”.The public option is non-profit. So are the co-ops. Both are established in the House bill as options for the uninsured.

  • Stranahan

    The problem being right away in your post.You said “You know what’s weird? A single-payer supporter suggesting that mandates are bad.”You were leading your readers to believe that everyone including single payer advocates is REALLY in favor of ‘mandates’.You’re committing the logical fallacy of equivocation – specially, you’re using the word ‘mandate’ in two different ways throughout the discussion.One way to use word mandate is ‘an advocate of specific solution to health reform through the use of an Individual Mandate, as supported by candidates Clinton and Edwards in 2008 primary’.Another way to use the word mandate is ‘something that is required’.An advocate of single payer is (by definition) NOT an advocate of ‘mandates’ in the first use of the term. They are separate and distinct political positions.But you equivocate on the word mandate and change the meaning to say a single payer advocates wants ‘mandates’ – in the second definition I described.By referencing RJ’s article, I was emphasizing the point that the ‘Individual Mandate’ is a distinct position…and not a progressive one. And not a universal one.But that’s a substantive issue. The biggest problem is what I’ve indicated. The whole piece is based on flip flopping between two definitions of the word ‘mandate’.It would be like call you a Republican because you believe in representative government.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:>>>>>You made the claim that single payer is the same as the ‘mandate’ system because they are both ‘mandatory’. That’s totally wrong in a crude way – because the words sound the same.Huh? Tell me how single-payer doesn’t include a mandate. Explain that, Lee.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:>>>An advocate of single payer is (by definition) NOT an advocate of ‘mandates’ in the first use of the term. They are separate and distinct political positions.So you want optional single-payer? How does that work? Because there isn’t a single-payer system in the world that’s optional.

  • Stranahan

    Just to clarify a bit more…let’s rewrite you first sentence, expanding the definitions of words…”You know what’s weird? An advocate of a single payer health care system saying they aren’t an advocate of mandates, e.g. a largely private health insurance system that requires an individual mandate?”But that’s not weird at all, right? It makes sense. Single payer proponents aren’t Individual Mandate proponents. Kucinich and Clinton had distinct views.It’s only ‘weird’ when you equivocate.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Hey Lee — How about this. How about you rewrite your inaccurate video first, then worry about rewriting my blog post about your inaccurate video.

  • http://www.mobilizeforhealthecare.org Terri

    Bob!!!!!!!!!!!!!In both you are ‘made to pay’ ……………but in one YOU ARE FORCED TO BUY CRAPOLA with HIGH, UNREGULATED PREMIUMS!!And the public will HATE that!Being “made to pay” for HIGH PREMIUM AND CRAP SERVICE is a rip off!With “mandated” (if you want to use the term I don’t care!) Single Payer the care would be standardized and there would be a GOOD RETURN FOR YOUR BUCK!In one (mandates) you are overpaying for garbage care; in single payer (mandatory, in effect) EVERYONE is in and the quality v. what is paid should be a very good trade :) Adding with “mandates” — it still “feeds” the for profit insurance companies and your ‘mandates’ go into the pockets of CEO millions.With “mandatory” Single Payer — no one is getting rich off of your illness!You are splitting hairs on semantics when, in reality, it is WHAT YOU ARE GETTING IN RETURN FOR YOUR “MANDATED” care which is the difference.

  • Stranahan

    >>>An advocate of single payer is (by definition) NOT an advocate of ‘mandates’ in the first use of the term. They are separate and distinct political positions.So you want optional single-payer? How does that work? Because there isn’t a single-payer system in the world that’s optional.

  • Stranahan

    Bob – you asked me to explain where you went wrong. I did and I think you realize the mistake you made. So now you switch to ‘fix your video’. Lame.My video was accurate. The bill allows premiums to go up 25% on the people the bill is supposed to help.Why aren’t you criticizing that sections of the bill?

  • Stranahan

    I quote again for the Book Of Eskow…to show that despite what Bob is leading you believe, there ARE actually distinct positions in health care reform.Quoting RJ…”here’s a categorical breakdown of health reform concepts on a progressive-to-conservative spectrum (it is, of necessity, imperfect):Most progressive: Medicare-For-All, aka Single-Payer.Somewhat progressive (but with a libertarian twist): Guaranteed basic coverage for all, paid from tax revenues, with “vouchers” that can be applied to private coverage.Moderate-to-progressive: Obama-like plan to reduce costs and improve IT platforms, without mandating coverage (while retaining the option to do so later).Moderate: Schwarzenegger-like plans to mandate coverage except where impractical and/or burdensome to individuals (with plans to mitigate the problem later).Somewhat conservative: Clinton-Edwards style plans that mandate “shared responsibility,” meaning every American must purchase health insurance even if that proves financially burdensome. (Note: Like #3 and #4, these plans provide financial assistance for lower-income individuals, but lower-middle-class families are likely to be hit hard.)Conservative: Maintaining the status quo.Radically conservative: Giuliani and Bush “reform” plans that combine the eradication of employer-funded insurance with a mythical “free market” in health coverage.Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/california-health-reform-_b_77980.html

  • Democrat

    HR 676 expands the Medicare program to provide all individuals residing in the United States and U.S. territories with free health care that includes all medically necessary care, such as primary care and prevention, prescription drugs, emergency care, long-term care, mental health services, dental services, and vision care. It provides, not mandates, because there is no insurance to buy. HR676 rids health care of the parasites called insurance companies. They of course will still be around for those who want face lifts, tummy tucks and any other cosmetic surgery. Everyone will pay a tax, that will pay for the health care. This public option in the talks would cover 94% of the uninsured, HR 676, would cover all. Mandated tax, ok, but we are doing that already; sales tax, hospital district tax, EMS tax, property tax, income tax etc. etc. I am willing to pay an extra tax for my health care that won’t deny me coverage or deny a procedure/treatment.

  • Hielo

    O.K. That does it. This shit is getting old.Everyone that participates in this blog would love to enact Medicare for all. So simple. So good.But I just do not understand why some people keep whining about the fact that Obama refuses to use his magic wand to give them exactly hat they want.Let me express an opinion that I am very qualified to give… mine:You cant fucking have it! Not now. Get over it. Please.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:>>>Single payer isn’t insurance.Wrong again.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Democrat wrote:>>>HR 676 expands the Medicare program to provide all individuals residing in the United States and U.S. territories with free health careFree health care, eh? Lee thinks your name is “straw man.”

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Terri wrote:>>>>In both you are ‘made to pay’ ……………but in one YOU ARE FORCED TO BUY CRAPOLA with HIGH, UNREGULATED PREMIUMS!!And you’re not forced to buy private plans in the House bill, either. Sheesh. The House bill has the public option. The Senate bill will have the public option and co-ops. Both are non-profit — exactly like single-payer — but with a more limited and optional reach.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    You beat me to it, Bob. HR 676 is not free. I would LOVE Medicare for all, but it will require higher taxes to offset the cost. Therefore there will be a MANDATE for everyone to pay for it through their taxes, which is totally fine by me. I have absolutely no problem with that. But Medicare, which is single payer, IS insurance. You don’t write a check to the “insurance company”, ie. the government, because it’s already deducted from your taxes. But when you go to the doctor, guess what: you have a Medicare “insurance” card.Single payer does not mean free. I would hope everyone would know that, but it’s obvious that not everyone does. My understanding is that the public option would NOT be issued to a FOR PROFIT company to administrate. Can anyone clarify that because I know there was talk of private companies being involved in that but I thought that notion was squashed.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Thank you, Carl.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Carl:>>>My understanding is that the public option would NOT be issued to a FOR PROFIT company to administrate.You’re right. The House bill’s public option is run by HHS.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee wrote:>>>My video was accurate. The bill allows premiums to go up 25% on the people the bill is supposed to help.It’s not accurate and you still haven’t corrected the record. The line item you reference in your video is contained under the subsection about the NATIONAL HIGH-RISK POOL PROGRAM — a program that provides immediate assistance to people with pre-existing conditions and so forth until the health exchanges are established.Line (g)(1)(B) says: “[premiums] shall be set at a level that does not exceed 125 percent of the prevailing standard rate for comparable coverage in the individual market.”So…1) 125% has nothing to do with 25%.2) This has nothing to do with the broader issue of insurance regulations, the exchanges or the public option.3) 125% is a cap on premiums for very sick people. Not a requirement for a premium hike. In other words, insurers can’t charge sick people what they would normally be charged for insurance which is significantly more than 125% of standard rates.Just admit that you misread the bill, Lee.

  • likala

    “Just admit that you misread the bill, Lee.”If history is any indication of what he’ll do, ain’t gonna happen Bob. I’ve watched you try to debate various issues with him from how legislation works to this silly mandate vs. mandatory semantic garbage.Some folks would rather take poison than admit a mistake and this guy is the king of poison takers.

  • http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=65905268&ref=profile Mike H.

    Uh Bob, Dennis is reading it the same way Lee is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yony3z8K51Q&feature=player_embeddedPelosi needs to clarify.

  • Stranahan

    Yeah – it’s obvious Bob is misreading the bill, actually…The high risk pool is people like ME – uninsured, pre-existing condition. The people who the health bill is trying to help. It’s not ‘very sick people’. Again, you’re misleading people.The 125% part is just Bob totally not getting the math. The insurers are allowed to charge premiums at 125% of the current premiums – in other words, 25% percent. And there aren’t allowed to charge more for conditions, they ARE allowed to charge more by AGE – twice as much as their lowest rate. That’s all on page 22.And it’s a ‘cap’ – but it allows them to raise rates by 25%. And you know they will.My video said – don’t help people by forcing them to buy something and raise the rates at the same time. It’s accurate.Just admit that you misread the bill, Bob.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    Mike H – I saw this clip live and thought it odd. But yeah, it looks like Dennis is reading it wrong too. Now, I have no idea if he’s playing politics to get his State Single Payer Amendment in, which I would favor, but the section he is reading on page 22 is a subset of the High Risk Pool for immediate coverage that Bob mentions, which starts on page 16.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:>>>The insurers are allowed to charge premiums at 125% of the current premiums – in other words, 25% percent.WHAH? Look, I’m not a math guy, but 125% isn’t the same as 25%. Explain this to me.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    Lee, I don’t know if I’m missing something here, but your video states, “The health care reform bill introduced by the House forces you to buy insurance. And it let’s the insurance company raise your rates immediately by 25%… That’s not reform, that’s a bailout to the insurance industry. Call Congress. Tell them to kill the bill.”That’s inferring that people who already have insurance would have their rates raised by 25%. It’s also inferring that Congress is forcing you to buy private insurance, not buy into a non-profit public option or co-op.Now, I remember you saying in the past that you currently can’t get insurance because of your “pre-existing” diabetes. So you would rather kill the bill that prevents exclusion to pre-existing conditions or rescission than having the opportunity to finally have some insurance until the public option kinks get ironed out in a couple of years (or much earlier once amendments are added)?I’m not trying to make light of your situation or anyone’s who can’t get or afford insurance currently for one reason or another. But I’m just trying to understand the logic. If you’re successful in “killing the bill,” HRC will be dead for yet another generation and that 25% you mention will be much more, and you’ll be in the same boat. You won’t even have the option of paying a high risk premium because no one will cover you.

  • Stranahan

    Let’s say the normal premium is $800.125% of the that premium is %1000.(By comparison – 100% of $800 is $800)That’s a 25% increase.The bill doesn’t say they can increase rates BY 125% – if that were so, our new example premium would be $1800. (800 + 1000) It says the premium IS (capped at) 125%Make sense?

  • Stranahan

    Carl – this is what I saying about the limits of a 30 second spot. I used the ‘your’ in the script because it’s stronger but…think about it…I’m not talking to people who already have insurance.Because if I were – then they wouldn’t be forced to buy insurance. So when I say “you’ll be forced to buy insurance’, I’m saying “If you don’t have insurance, you’ll be forced to buy insurance…and you’ll pay 25% higher premiums than the premiums that you probably already can’t afford”And now it’s a 50 second, less impactful spot. BUT I think I covered that in the opening – you don’t help the homeless by forcing them to pay rent, and higher rent at that.So that’s what I keep saying – the commercial is accurate. It doesn’t tell the entire story but as far as it goes, it’s totally accurate.I don’t buy the idea that we only get to try and reform health care once a generation. That is a high pressure sales tactic that Obama is using to try and force people into agreeing to a bad bill. But it’s not true. Just used car sales technique.We can come up with a better bill right away.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    I don’t buy the idea that we only get to try and reform health care once a generation. That is a high pressure sales tactic that Obama is using to try and force people into agreeing to a bad bill.

    Obama, 2009 – Clinton, 1992 – Nixon, 1974… looks like once a generation to me.

  • http://www.mobilizeforhealthecare.org Terri

    Bob, apparently doesn’t understand the difference between a mandate to buy a “private” product when the product has a monopoly or duopoly and a mandate for everyone to be in a pool to spread the risk.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    Yes, WE could come up with a better bill right away, but we’re not Congress. Once something fails in their hands, it becomes a pariah and no one touches it for years. HR676 has been on the books since 2003 and has sat idle until recently even though there are currently 88 cosponsors. Six years and nothing has been done. So really, once a generation isn’t that much of an exaggeration.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Okay, you’re right on the math.But you’re wrong on who it applies to. This section of the bill is about immediate interim assistance to a high-risk pool of people. The 125% doesn’t apply to the entire bill. You made it seem as though it did.Furthermore, these high-risk people have been locked out of the system. If this part of the House bill becomes law, these high-risk people will get insurance right away and the privates won’t be able to gouge them beyond a 25% higher rate due to their higher risk. Did you expect that a 55-year-old man with lung cancer would receive health insurance at the same rate as a 22-year-old in perfect health?Right now, this 55-year-old man with lung cancer doesn’t have insurance because he’s been locked out of the system. Now he’ll get insurance that’s only 25% more expensive than a 22-year-old fitness expert. That’s a major improvement!If the premiums were the same, costs would continue to skyrocket in order to compensate for the influx of sick people but no accompanying sick person premiums.In fact, there’s a similar concern about the public option coming from people ranging from Ezra to RJ Eskow and the CBO. If the public option becomes a dumping ground for sick people, costs will be forced upwards to the point where the public option premiums are higher than the private premiums. Yet another argument for a Medicare+5 amendment or separate bill down the road.So I admitted to getting the math wrong. Will you admit that your video is inaccurate and misleading?

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    Terri, can you please point me to the specific language that “mandates” buying “private” insurance?

  • Stranahan

    You’re citing dates with no context. There’s no reason – none at all – that the legislation can’t be fixed or retried.It’a literally a high pressure sales technique. Read any basic marketing book. (Dan Kennedy is good aside from his politics.) Or read the book Influence. This offer will NOT be repeated! Order NOW!It’s effective. That’s why it’s being used – but it’s a technique, not a fact. And Obama has made it part of his sales pitch.When Bush used the same URGENT technique, he got a war. Obama and Bush used it to give billions to corporations in the form of bailouts.Don’t fall for it.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Terri:>>>Bob, apparently doesn’t understand the difference between a mandate to buy a “private” product when the product has a monopoly or duopoly and a mandate for everyone to be in a pool to spread the risk.The House bill strips the privates of their anti-trust exemption and provides a public option. So no one is mandated to buy private insurance in the House bill.The mandates in the House bill ARE putting everyone into a pool to spread the risk. For now, the pool will be made up of both private and public plans until it evolves into a single-payer system.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    Lee – you still didn’t address my question. Would you rather kill the bill that would give you access to health care despite your pre-existing condition than have the status-quo? Because as you well know, if this doesn’t get passed, Congress isn’t going to go back to the drawing board, fix it and retry it in a few months. It’ll die on the shelf.

  • Stranahan

    My video was accurate, for reasons I’ve stated several times.The video has also criticized for not explaining that single payer is the answer. 30 seonds.The solution is treat the guy with cancer and not bring an insurance company into the equation at all. Get the guy to the doctor – don’t fine him.Because what if he STILL can’t afford insurance, Bob? What if he’s not so broke he qualifies for help – but not so wealthy to afford the jacked up premium.What if it’s cheaper to pay the fine then get insurance and that’s all he can afford.That’s me, Bob. I have rent and car payments and utilities I HAVE to pay. I don’t have another $800 – $1400 a month to pay for health care right now. Forget the guy with cancer – that’s ME in the ‘high risk’ pool. Read the bill…How does paying a fine or risking jail for not paying a fine going to help me? Or the millions like me?The insurance industry doesn’t help. Fines don’t help. Doctors might help. How to pay for it?RJ, from 2007Our society already has a tool for funding our “shared responsibilities.” It’s called taxation, and it’s designed to avoid placing catastrophic financial burdens on any one economic group. Yet Clinton, Edwards, and allies like Paul Krugman continue to push the idea that health reform plans aren’t “progressive” unless they force everyone to purchase private insurance. Then they boast that their plans “cover everyone.” They do, in a way – the same way that a shotgun wedding “helps you find your soul mate.”Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/california-health-reform-_b_77980.html

  • Stranahan

    Carl,I would rather have no bill than one that entrenches and enriches the insurance industry even further, raises rates, and sends people to jail for not paying money to AETNA.We need a good bill. Stop acting like that’s impossible.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:>>>The solution is treat the guy with cancer and not bring an insurance company into the equation at all. Get the guy to the doctor – don’t fine him.Who gets stuck with the bill? The doctors? The whole purpose of insurance is to bridge gaps between patients, costs and doctors.>>>My video was accurate, for reasons I’ve stated several times.No it’s not because you suggest that the premium language on page 22 applies to everyone. It very simply DOES NOT.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Lee:>>>sends people to jail for not paying money to AETNA.The House bill doesn’t do that. And if we take Reid at his word, neither will the Senate bill.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    Lee – I’m not acting like a good bill is impossible. Stop acting like this bill won’t morph into a better one with vigorous debate and amendments, which hasn’t happened yet.BTW, you’d be fully covered in jail, although I don’t think the government is going to put 40+ million uninsured in jail. Talk about straw man!

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    sorry I didn’t respond earlier, but i’ll defend my accusation of “gutless”. This bill is gutless, because the Democrats KNOW what the right thing to do is, and they’ve chosen a path of lesser resistance. 60 Democrats in the senate, and they have not the guts to draft legislation that would solve our “uninsured” problem less expensively.What good is a political party for if you cannot hold to your own beliefs while enjoying a SUPER-MAJORITY? Gutless.Legislation like this is where political parties fail every time. What we end up with is the lowest common denominator, rather than building the dreams we dream.Is it our elected representatives jobs to “get something done”, or do the right thing?See, Bob, you have to be an outsider with no agenda to get the right thing. At this point, your party and our President want a victory, and any old victory will do. But if you look into the future, four years from now, can you guarantee a Democratic majority in the houses? The Repubs will tear this legislation down the moment they have the majority.When do we get to the right thing? If not now, when?

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    Am I reading correctly that there is to be a cap on premiums that the insurance companies can charge?If that is true, say hello to continuous bailout bills for the insurance industry. They cannot cover these people…AT ANY COST!Mandating that they do is stupid. The only entity that can cover these people is the government. That equates into the PO becoming America’s high risk health care plan. It cannot happen any other way.This is not business the insurance industry has ever wanted. They can’t make it work. Forcing them to try is ignorance.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    PPP – I don’t understand your thinking. Are you saying that only the government should cover high risk individuals in need of health care even though the insurance companies spend billions a year on advertising and lobbying, denying coverage to premium paying customers and dropping those who become ill, enjoy anti-trust exemption laws, have record profits every year and increase premiums by double digit points?

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    Carl, at this point, that is exactly what I am saying. Unless you want to be bailing these same insurance companies out within six months of this bill’s passage, only the Public option can absorb the losses to cover these people. It’s not free; our taxes will increase, but insurers simply cannot do the business, and have known they can’t since forever.

  • http://broadwaycarl.blogspot.com Broadway Carl™

    PPP – I’d agree with you if there wasn’t a rash of rescission. It’s one thing if you’re not accepted by an insurance company due to a pre-existing condition, but it’s criminal to deny coverage to good faith, premium paying customers who think they are covered and therefore safe, or to drop someone from coverage after they get sick for the sake of the bottom line.Health insurance and “for-profit” do not mix. 50 million uninsured does not equal 50 million sick people. If insurance companies can’t deal with the percentage of the sick that they’d have to cover with the added influx of income they’d receive, then they should get out of the business altogether. Stick to car insurance.

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    I won’t speak of the practice of recission, except to say that I have spoken out about it for years.As for health inusrers getting out of the business, I agree. But, see, writing a common sense single-payer bill would have accomplished that. Instead, we are looking at a bill that is guaranteed to cost way more than necessary.Someone please tell me why common sense and Washington are polar opposites?

  • Hielo

    It’s always the same answer PPP…Bribery

  • Stranahan

    P3 is right; the bill is gutless.Someone explain what happens if I don’t buy insurance and don’t pay my fine…

  • Hielo

    LeeWhile someone is preparing an answer to your question, why don’t you explain how you would handle the bribery that results in compromise legislation.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    @PPP and Stranahan:To label the House bill as gutless shows very little sense of history or understanding of the financial and political forces lined up against reform.No other modern president from TR forward has been able to get this far.Lee: “Someone explain what happens if I don’t buy insurance and don’t pay my fine…”You wouldn’t even enroll in the public option? You’re hardcore.As for the penalty, we’re talking a fine at tax time and if you don’t pay it you’d either have a lien attached to your assets or your wages garnished.I wonder what happens in France or Canada if you don’t pay your taxes.

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    Hielo, I can answer that, but apparently, our elected officials don’t know about it yet.See, a common sense solution to your problem would have been to pass REAL campaign finance reform legislation first…then tackle the other biggest problems our nation faces. Why? Because our nation faces no bigger problem than the FACT that almost every one of our elected officials (Repub or Dem) is owned by special interests. If you cut out that infection, you change the way Washington does business. See? We don’t need President Obama to change Washington; we can do it ourselves.Here’s how you do it: You take the money out of lobbying and PACS completely. NO MONEY, WHATSOEVER. We have no problem with lobbyists; i think we all can agree that real ideas and issues bear their own weight without the aid of bribery. The two parties do not get that. In fact, they don’t even really think anything is wrong with the system. How pathetic is that?But, Hielo, if enough of us scream about it, or run for office as Independents without lobbyist money, we can begin to change Washington. Don’t expect the Dems to do it, or the Repubs. They all swim in the same contaminated water, and strangely, they LIKE it. See, it keeps you in your place; a little person without any power.Let’s face it, there are only two groups of people in this country who know how to run America; the Democrats and the Republicans. The rest of us are just the uneducated masses.Now shut the fuck up, and go vote for the best looking party politician you can find. ;D

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    Oh Bob, I have a fine sense of history, and you know it. I can cite many examples of gutless legislation that our two wonderful parties have drafted for the last seventy years. In fact, I’d bet under close scrutiny, nearly every bit of legislation in the last seventy years could be labeled as gutless. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

  • Hielo

    Wow PPP. Can I get some of that stuff you’re smoking?I had no idea major change could be accomplished so easily. So we just do away with the money that passes to elected “representatives” from the corporations that run the country… and then do health care reform? Got it. I’ll tell everybody.Seriously, if you look at the root cause of nearly everything that makes no sense in this country, bribery will turn up. So I agree with what you are saying. But electing a few Independents is just pissing in the wind.

  • SillyGit

    I’m with PPP on this one.Here is what happens under this intentionally designed to fail abortion of HCR.There will be private risk pools which will eject all of their ‘sick’ members into the public pool. The end result will be that there is a number of private maximum profit pools and one public ultra high risk pool. I should not have to explain what the implications of this highly inevitable and intentionally designed in result are.I look forward to being fucked more by the same criminals that have been fucking me for decades. This is a corporate fascist wetdream and I want whatever the people that are not grokking this are smoking.

  • Hielo

    Well, GitI just have to take issue with the ” intentionally designed to fail” comment. The bills are not in final form, as you know. There is no doubt a lot of lobbing garbage packed in there. But they are moving in the right direction…and our extremely smart President will ultimately have to sign the words into law.Criticism can be good. Timing always is.Good to hear from you.

  • Stranahan

    The bills aren’t moving in the right direction…they are moving towards a trigger, in part because that’s what the White House wants.The best you can hope for is Reid’s opt-out.

  • Hielo

    LeeOther than the opinion of Ed Shultz, do you have any real evidence that Obama wants the trigger?I recall this theory passing through a week or so ago.It was debunked then.I don’t have any serious problem with the “opt out”. In fact, there are several states that probably should.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    Lee:The trigger?! Did you seriously just bring up the trigger?!As Hielo astutely pointed out, that theory was shot down when the story revolving the “anonymous White House source” (You can’t resist them. I know.) was retracted. NOBODY WANTS THE TRIGGER. Anybody truly following HCR would be keenly aware of that fact.But way to muddy the waters, Lee.

  • Stranahan

    It wasn’t debunked anywhere but here. In fact – through multiples reports – it’s clear that the White House is pushing for the trigger. The fact that you think it’s ‘debunked’ is part of what I mean when I that I don’t think Bob is doing his readers a service by misreporting things.Check the archives – Bob also said that he believed the White House’s denial of the PhRMA deal…and that was a lie.The Obama White House lies about things. And there’s no Santa. Sorry.And why hasn’t Bob mentioned Kucinich’s State Single Payer amendment that was stripped?http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11778

  • Stranahan

    Providing health care to all Americans is the moral responsibility of our government, consistent with the Preamble in the Constitution. Yet we are being told that it is not possible to have the kind of single payer health system which every industrialized democracy in the world has.We compromised on single payer by backing a public option, and now we are being asked to compromise the public option with negotiated rates. In conference, we will likely be asked to compromise negotiated rates with a trigger. In each and every step of the health care debate, the insurance companies have won. If they get hundreds of billions of dollars in new taxpayer subsidies, they get to raise their premiums, and increase their co pays and deductibles, while the public is forced to pay for private insurance, then the insurance companies win big.If this is the best we can do, then it is time to ask ourselves whether the two-party system is truly capable of representing the American people or whether the system has been so compromised by special interests that we can’t even protect the health of our own people. This is a moment of truth for the Democratic Party. Will we stand for the people or the insurance companies?

  • Stranahan

    Redmond,Just because you really WANT something to be true doesn’t make it true. The story wasn’t shot down anywhere but Bob Cesca’s blog – the same blog that ‘shot down’ the PhRMA deal when the WH denied it.The White House is pushing for the trigger. That’s a fact. Try to read some outside news sources.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    Lee, Politico retracted the story which is pretty much a full debunking. Unless that’s just the man lying to us and Cesca’s on the take. Of course, it all makes sense now. Awesome Blog starts with A. AETNA starts with A… OH. MY. GOD.As for:

    We compromised on single payer by backing a public option, and now we are being asked to compromise the public option with negotiated rates. In conference, we will likely be asked to compromise negotiated rates with a trigger. In each and every step of the health care debate, the insurance companies have won. If they get hundreds of billions of dollars in new taxpayer subsidies, they get to raise their premiums, and increase their co pays and deductibles, while the public is forced to pay for private insurance, then the insurance companies win big.

    More conspiratorial speculation and the premiums are capped – IT’S IN THE BILL.Listen, the public option is the stepping stone for single payer which would die in legislation. Sad reality, but hey, that’s life. I don’t think you get that none of us are against single payer, but we’re realistic about the road to getting there. It starts here with the public option not with scrapping bills because you don’t know how to read them and your “groupthink” is demanding single payer now or they’ll vote for third party candidates thus sinking the entire process.Good luck getting HCR with a Republican after you started backing The Kucinich Party.

  • Norman Shutters

    Oh, great, I finally return and now Stranahan has goons pushing his goofy ideas on his behalf?I’ll tell you the same thing I told my grandma: Obama ain’t out to git ya. Calm down.

  • Stranahan

    Redmond – why exactly are you attacking Dennis Kucinich again?And that ‘More conspiratorial speculation’ – that was all a quote from Dennis Kucinich, who knows the bill and the issues better than you.And what did Politico retract?The goons are here on the blog, trying to cling to the idea that this is a good bill that will just get better.My goofy ideas are being expressed by people like Michael Moore. This is a weak kneed public option, according the Moore.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    Lee, not that it changes my statement, but I didn’t realize you were literally quoting Kucinich in your comment since you didn’t provide any attribution.http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=151778But, again, hats off to you – and Terri – for completely dovetailing this thread away from the subject of your inaccurate video.Well played.

  • Stranahan

    Yeah, I didn’t attribute it to Kucinich on purpose as a deliberate trap, knowing you’d attack it because you thought I said it.And sure enough, you did…And the video is and was accurate – if you are forced to buy insurance, the bill allows companies to raise rates by 25% Said it 10 times. Yawn.Really – read other news sources. Read the comments here, for instance – http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11778That's what progressives – real ones – think.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    Lee said:

    Yeah, I didn’t attribute it to Kucinich on purpose as a deliberate trap, knowing you’d attack it because you thought I said it.
    And sure enough, you did…

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wow, you truly are drunk on your own bullshit. Nice attempt at a cover up, Forum Ninja.In the meantime, to repeat my comment which negated “your brilliant strategy,” it’s pure speculation regardless who said it.

  • Stranahan

    Yeah, it’s true. I copied it from here…http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11778Which I had just linked in a previous entry.And if you check what I copied and pasted, you’ll notice that I had to remove the quote marks so it wouldn’t be obvious it was a quote…there are about 3 of them. Go look…I knew 2 things…1) You wouldn’t read the link since you are happy with the Kool-Aid you get here…2) You’d attack what you thought was me talking.Now – what did Politico retract, again?

  • likala

    “you are happy with the Kool-Aid you get here.”Hmmmm…Cesca kool-aidYummy!

  • Eric

    There is a :30 spot that I’ve been seeing lately on cable, sponsored by a conservative organization, that has the intent of killing HCR legislation. It focuses on the taxes that the legislation will impose to help finance the bill. It has a symbolic graphical premise – a balloon being inflated and inflated until it bursts. It ends with a exhortation to ‘call your senator’.The spot doesn’t detail what group on which the tax would be imposed (rich people). While one can readily (and incorrectly) infer that the tax burden would apply to everyone, the spot is, technically, accurate insofar as it goes. There’s your “limitations of a :30 spot”, I suppose. Except, (and without being able to read the minds of the creators of that commercial), I would bet that their goal was to spread ‘misinformation’ without actually doing so, all to gain the outcome they desire.I kept wondering why the spot that Lee Stranahan created didn’t, at some point, bring up the nugget that he was a proponent of single-payer. Here were the ‘problems’ that he perceived – why no mention of his ‘solution’? Even a passing mention?While reading through the comment stream I found a reference to this by Mr. Stranahan. He mentioned that he had been criticized about this on the site where the video was posted. Again – the proffered reason: “the limitations of a :30 spot”. I read that a lot in this comment stream. “The limitations of a :30 spot”.I think that’s a bunch of crap. I think that Mr. Stranahan deliberately left out the single-payer solution. I think he knew that if that bit of information was in there he would immediately lose the majority of the people that might be swayed by his spot. There’s a lot of ‘misinformation’ that can be inferred from his spot, even though it is possible to claim that it is accurate, insofar as it goes.His strategy, if I have it correctly, is to kill the current legislation with an eye toward creating a ‘better bill’ next year, or at some point in the future. His spot is intended to achieve this goal.If half of the people (and I’m guessing that is a conservative estimate) responding to the spot are either centrist or on the right, how the hell is that going to help get single-payer enacted?

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    PPP wrote:>>>Oh Bob, I have a fine sense of history, and you know it.You know a lot about history, yes, but “gutless” doesn’t indicate that you have a sense of how historical this is.The Democrats nearly fumbled. Yes. And any good legislation can always be made better (see FDR’s original Social Security bill and now it didn’t cover all varieties of Americans). But we’ve never reached this point in healthcare reform — ever — with this number of new regulations on the cartel. Say nothing of the opposition HCR has faced this time around.Good day, everyone, and welcome to Day 2 of this roundelay.

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    Leee:>>>And the video is and was accurate – if you are forced to buy insurance, the bill allows companies to raise rates by 25% Said it 10 times. Yawn.Nope. Wrong. Your video and statements above are based on a section about immediate High-Risk Pool assistance. It doesn’t apply to everyone. AND it’s NOT mandatory. The only mandate is that you have to be provided with insurance if you qualify as high-risk, and insurers can’t change you more than 25% beyond what they would charge a healthy person. You have to apply and meet certain criteria showing your high-risk status, and then the coverage ends when the exchanges are set up. Start reading at Page 16: SEC. 101. NATIONAL HIGH-RISK POOL PROGRAM. This section ends on Page 26. By the way, the Page 22 line you cited is listed under the section titled CONSUMER PROTECTIONS.Lee, you’re wrong. Admit it.

  • Hielo

    BobEvery new post regarding the HFC will eventually attract the leftbaggers. I really don’t get it.Why just define the problem and ignore all requests for a proposed solution?Another day. More complaining. I read this somewhere…”If one could wake up to the fact that real situations cannot be delineated as clearly as concepts, and thereby renounce the expectation of perfect adherence to ideals, then one would experience the sensation of a sudden opening of mind.”

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    >>>The only mandate is that you have to be provided with insurance if you qualify as high-risk, and insurers can’t change you more than 25% beyond what they would charge a healthy person.And this is what I was talking about above. Baaaaaaddddd idea. Who “thunk” this one up? You might as well, in the legislation, add several lines pertaining to a process of discovering which insurance companies are too big to fail, so we can identify the companies we are going to have bail out on a yearly basis up front.Incidentally, is the cost of those bailouts included in the cost of this bill?It’s gutless, Bob, because even with a super-majority, somehow your party finds that writing legislation which reflects its core beliefs is too risky.What is your party good for if you won’t even DRAFT legislation that most of you agree on wholeheartedly? You won’t even draft it, much less let it see the house floor.

  • Hielo

    Here we go…PPP: Did you read the quote?(Sorry about “HFC”. WTF is that? New thought: Don’t post early in the AM)

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Redmond

    @Lee:Again, caught in your own bullshit. I did read the link about the Kucinich amendment when you posted it and – surprise! – it doesn’t contain the text you copy and pasted.I’ll wait for you to change the subject now instead of admit you’re wrong. Not unlike the video situation.

  • Slice

    http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/20/bait-and-switch-how-the-%E2%80%9Cpublic-option%E2%80%9D-was-sold/“To sum up, “public option” advocates must choose between continuing to promote the “public option” and seeing their hopes for cost containment and universal coverage go up in smoke for another four years, and throwing their considerable influence behind single-payer legislation. At this late date in the 2009 session, it is unlikely that a single-payer bill could be passed even if unity within the universal coverage movement could be achieved. But if the “public option” wing and the single-payer wing join together to demand that Congress enact a single-payer system, December 2009 need not constitute a deadline.”

  • MrBrink

    This reform bill effort is ideologically somewhere between FDR and Reagan.Call it “uniquely American” if you want.But I will say this. Collecting taxes for universal healthcare is perfectly constitutional and with precedent.When Bob says this reform bill is historical, in many ways it is. But what stands out for me is the mandate legally binding an individual to procure some form of basic health insurance or face penalties. That’s really historical in that it’s sure to be challenged in front of the Supreme Court due to its precedent. Rightfully so.Sorry. Auto insurance is nowhere near the same thing. You can choose not to drive a car. Stop lying to yourself when you use this as equal precedent.I don’t know of another piece of legislation that demands individual compliance and partnership with an industry like the nation’s rescinding and profiteering healthcare insurance corporations– with their super bowl advertising, modern day collosseums to greed representative of moral misappropriation, and all the despicable CEO bonuses that are sure to continue on in the name of reform.The good news is, Democrats can call it reform and in a lot of ways it is. The bad news is, individual Americans are expected to get with the program of sustaining industries that have gotten rich watching people die– or I should say, rescinding you to death. Nice bunch.There is no precedent for this kind of individual mandate. The obvious protections the government has supplied us with is thoughtful(ending pre-existing conditions, Rescission), but if a private, for profit industry in control of our nation’s healthcare system and 1/6th of the economy has to be forced against their will into an arranged marriage….fuck em’ if they don’t think I’m pretty enough.There is, on the other hand, precedent for taxation into a single payer system in America.I like Lee’s resistance to this. He’s also correct when he ties healthcare into the national commons.But I also appreciate Bob’s pragmatism and sense of now- into the future. But relying on the “slippery slope” to single payer as a consolation, or comfort, is only as solid as the next Reagan-like president and Stepford congress. As much as liberal tweaking and tinkering might lead to a more perfect solution down the road, there’s a conservative rub as well who’ve been trying to kill FDR’s legacy(some quite literally)for well over 50 years.I also appreciate Bob’s perspective in that this fight isn’t over. It’s a neverending battle. But 40% of the country hates democrats and liberals and they never take a day off. They’re relentless and they’re crazy and they hold power. Sarah Palin and the like are fucking batshit. If you ever believed her to be VP material, you’re an easily duped goober hurting the minds of children. That goes for all the bandwagoneers as well.My concern is, if this is a neverending battle. If the future carries the hope of a single payer system through this bill, how committed and prepared are progressives to a neverending battle?