Team Obama Pressures Congress on Public Option

Oh Bob. Quit making Kool-Aid. I’m sorry but I just can’t take a story that has no anonymous sources seriously. I just can’t.

The white house took the anonymous source’s job!

Anonymous source or it didn’t happen.Right, Stranaterri?

Good news.

Is this a drive to get the Senate into gear? I hope so. I remember how happy we were to contemplate Rahm Emanuel kicking in Reid’s door whenever he didn’t want to play ball. Which is all the fucking time. Time to take him off his leash.Oh wait. Rahm is a DLCer that wants a trigger, hates Progressives, blah blah blah blah…

I have found it interesting how there’s been so little…attention/credence/notice given to all the emails I’ve been receiving from “Organizing for America” and the tweets from “BarackObama”. I get that they’re not directly from him, but I don’t think they’d be throwing his name around so freely if it were to work against what the administration wants.

Slightly O/T, but in keeping with our ongoing discussions regarding Obama (perhaps) losing the left, etc., etc.I was reading a diary over on DKos by a fellow from Maine about the defeat of the marriage equality issue. I assumed, from phrasing used, that he’s gay. He was disappointed, but upbeat about the eventual success of the cause simply because, with every year, the opponents are dying off.He ended the diary with this:

“So that’s where I am this morning. Thank you so much for your support and kind comments. A full C&J returns tomorrow, but below the fold is a look back at our reaction when history of another kind was made one year ago today as (say it with me, teabaggers!) Barack Obama destroyed the hapless Palin/McCain ticket to become the first African-American president of the United States. That’s worth re-celebrating. That’s worth smiling about.”

It would seem that our president hasn’t lost this part of the left.

Stranaterri? Oh man that’s funny! it’s all love though, it’s all love.

@Eric – Thanks for posting the diary from DK.

You don’t get it. This story proves YOU were wrong. Gee – why is this news? I thought the President was working hard for a public option and had laid out clearly exactly what form of the public option he supported. Huh – but you’re all noting that this is something new.This is what can happen when there’s pressure from the left. And everyone here was busy yelling at the people trying to pressure stuff like this into happening.You are the ones who gave up on the President. You did nothing. Thank the the people who were calling, writing and urging the White House to come out for a strong public option.Imagine if you’d helped.

Well this all fine and dandy but now the gutless wonder Reid says he’s not going to have a vote til January.So what’s the big hurry for the house all of a sudden?

Man,Lee, do you love to point fingers and blame.As far as I knew, we all supported a public option and BELIEVED that the president always did as well. If I recall we were making fun of the anonymous “insiders” always pretending that Obama did not support a public option. I made my voice heard in a positive way always. Don’t imagine you know what we all did. We just do it in a very different way/ voice than you

Hey, Lee, imagine if you weren’t such a self-important douchenozzle.

You don’t see to get it – he’s losing his base. I know because I AM his base.

Also, you’ll just have to imagine that you spelled ‘seem’ correctly in that tweet.

Lee said:

You are the ones who gave up on the President.

So is the Crazy Train stopping in Ironytown this morning or did I miss something?Lee, I’m not even going to waste my effort pointing out that comment flies in the face of the multiple rants you’ve made about health care reform. But glad to see you’re now taking credit for a public option that you’ve railed against for either having mandates or not being full-blown single payer. That’s not disingenuous at all.

Lee, I’m shocked that you would say that we gave up on the President and didn’t do anything. We all did our part and did what we were supposed to do. The only thing we didn’t do was join in with the “Obama is a fraud” meme.You just told a bold faced lie.

Does Lee’s comment surprise any of you? I’ve been reading and following along with this nut bags rants for quite a while now and have finally had enough. Enough that I can’t keep my mouth shut any longer.Get a grip on your mental illness Lee.

Stranahan sez:

“You are the ones who gave up on the President. You did nothing. Thank the the people who were calling, writing and urging the White House to come out for a strong public option.”

I remember emailing the White House regularly clearly stating that mandates for insurance without a robust public option was unacceptable. On HCR, DOMA, and DADT, I’ve made my position clear to the White House, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi on more than one occasion.What I haven’t done is harangue the living fuck out of everyone else for not being as hard core as I imagine myself to be about.

Lee’s not mentally ill — he’s perfectly aware of what he’s doing. He’s self-aggrandizing, per the usual, and he doesn’t mind if he has to lie through his tooth to make himself look better.Obama isn’t reading your tweets, Lee, and Rahm hasn’t subscribed to your YouTube channel. Get over yourself.

You are the ones who gave up on the President. You did nothing. Thank the the people who were calling, writing and urging the White House to come out for a strong public option.Between this gem from Stranahan and the quote below from Erick Erickson, I’m wondering who left the gate from Alternaland open last night.

First off, because of my diabetes my eyesight is horrible – constant swimming, light flashes and blurriness that comes and go. It’s difficult to describe how awful this is. I can’t read books anymore. I can read my iPod / Kindle and I can make the text HUGE on my computer screen and even then it’s difficult. So I have typos sometimes. Sorry.Second – there’s no point EVER where I said give up.This site has become a bunch of assholes who attack people like Terri or I and laugh at each other’s jokes. It’s no fun and Bob has been part of it both publically and privately. He’s done nothing to raise the tone. He allowed personal attacks and he made some.Rather than treat progressive concern about Obama’s lack of leadership on health care as the valid position it is – arguably right or wrong but clearly VALID – Bob treated it (and me) like we were crazy. If I’m crazy, then so is Arianna, Michael Moore, Robert Reich, RJ Eskow, Dennis Kucinich, Ed Schultz and a host of others.But Bob didn’t quote them or their articles and STRONGLY discouraged me from doing the same – because he wanted to make criticism of Obama sound crazy. Of course, he never wrote a HuffPost article about that – just did it here and the board he controls.SO whatever – act like a high school mob if it makes you feel better. At the end of the day, you were cowards.

Behaving with such self-importance, blatenly lying and an inability to come to grips with reality are signs of mental illness. Just because he’s aware that he’s doing it, doesn’t mean he’s not fucked in the head.

Hey Redmond,Who are you again? How many videos did I make in favor of the Public Option? 20? Where did I EVER say I was against the Public Option?Stop lying, you prick.

Oh. My. God.Lee, you need help. Seriously.

This is the crazy I’ve been saying for months.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/obama-one-year-later-the_b_343209.htmlhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/base-to-obama-come-in-ple_b_344363.html

Sammy. Fuck you.

Lee said,Hey Redmond, Who are you again?I thought this was already settled.Redmond is THE BATMAN!

No, Lee Stranahan, fuck you. Fuck you in your stupid ass. Yes, I hurled some insults at you, and it’s because you deserve them, you miserable piece of shit.I’m sure there are plenty of people who would probably be more inclined to agree with you on certain points, if you weren’t such an egotistical twerp.

To wit.Lee, why don’t you just shut the fuck up and stop coming here just to slam Bob, Redmond and anyone else who Bob chooses to contribute to HIS blog? All you do is cherry pick, lie, spread misinformation and make personal attacks. Talk about high school…better look at yourself.

As Bert Cooper said “A man is whatever room he’s in.” After being called crazy for months, sure – I’m crazy. I hold a position that has been marginalized here.In other places, I’m stating the same thing that growing number of progressives are. In other places, I’m in the majority.

Lee,I support you completely. I’ve seen your videos and appreciate the effort you have put in. Don’t let these clowns get you down. You are the only person on this site that has worked – actually worked – to hold the Obama administration accountable. It’s unfortunate and reprehensible that you’re being attacked for this.

No. What you are is a self-important, flaming prick.

I’ve written hundreds of emails over the last months. I’ve made dozens of phone calls. Signed probably the same amount of petitions. Donated money I couldn’t afford to. Reached out to every like-minded acquaintance I have to do the same.Just imagine, indeed.

Lee said:

Where did I EVER say I was against the Public Option?

Three words for you, Lee: “Kill The Bill.” Sound familiar?Lee also said:

In other places, I’m stating the same thing that growing number of progressives are. In other places, I’m in the majority.

So you just derided us all here for mob rule, only to turn around and say “All the cool kids are doing it where I come from.”Lee Stranahan, everybody, master of logic!

Allen, thanks very much. It’s ugly. I haven’t really helped raise the level of discourse in every case but it’s been a miserable few months for me here.Eric – you’ve done stuffou were putting pressure on the White House, too, right? If so, then I wasn’t talking about you.

Thank you Redmond. Lee has short term memory loss due to his raging egomania.

Redmond,1. Lee only said “Kill the Bill” AFTER the watered-down garbage they’re now pushing became the “public option”. Lee has been for a robust public option all along, as are more progressives.2. Again, the reason Lee is currently with the majority of progressives on this issue is because of the current state of the “public option”. Many progressives were for the bill before it became more and more watered down as to be nearly meaningless. Many progressives then turned against the bill, as they should have. Most on this site, have not. This has nothing to do with “mob rule”.Read what Lee is saying instead of trying to come up with clever ad hominem attacks.

Redmond – I said Kill The Bill because it’s NOT a robust public option. RJ Eskow called it a ‘pseudo public option’. Michael Moore called it a weak kneed public option. I agree with that. The current health care bill needs to be killed to save health care reform.I have never one said I’m opposed to a robust public option – that was blatant, bald faced lie on your part. Either thst, or it’s another example of your shallow understanding – you don’t seem to be able to grasp that a person could oppose the House Bill but be in favor of a robust Public Option. In either case…you’re wrong.And my point about ‘the room I’m in’ is that this blog has gone out of its way to marginalize progressive criticism of President Obama as crazy – therefore, HERE – it is crazy.But that’s here. And this isn’t the real world.

Lee:>>>If I’m crazy, then so is Arianna, Michael Moore, Robert Reich, RJ Eskow, Dennis Kucinich, Ed Schultz and a host of others.They all understand the dynamics of effective argument. Not every word out of their mouths has to do with how Obama is killing puppies or selling out America. Also, Michael Moore has been extraordinarily complementary of the president.I’m sorry about the more incendiary language here, Lee. For what it’s worth, you should see the emails and Facebook messages I get — not just from wingnuts, but from my left flank. And until recently, I didn’t think I had a left flank.

I meant to say ‘This isn’t the WHOLE world.” It’s part of the real world, obviously.Allen – well said and exactly right.

That’s a laugh riot Allen!He didn’t even read the part of the bill he railed against on Sunday. Why don’t you tell your beloved Lee to get his facts straight on parts of the bill before doing a whole video about them? He still won’t admit he read it wrong. I have no respect for that behavior. None.

Leee:>>>I said Kill The Bill because it’s NOT a robust public option. RJ Eskow called it a ‘pseudo public option’. Michael Moore called it a weak kneed public option. I agree with that. The current health care bill needs to be killed to save health care reform.The public option isn’t “robust” but it’s a better plan than nothing at all. Remember the Social Security example. FDR’s bill didn’t cover all varieties of American workers including farmers, clergy, railroad workers, the self-employed, government workers, domestic workers, etc. No disability benefits. No survivor benefits. None of what we take for granted today.In other words, it wasn’t a “robust” Social Security bill — but it was enough to facilitate an ongoing expansion. That’s the ultimate point of the public option. To expand it until we have single-payer. This is why I’ve supported the public option from the start.So I refuse to buy this over-the-top ‘kill the bill’ nonsense.

Let’s take a look at a few of Sammyscooge’s comments on this thread alone:”Get a grip on your mental illness Lee.”"Signs of mental illness.”"Fucked in the head.”"Shut the fuck up and stop coming here.”"A self-important, flaming prick.”Yeah, you’re someone to take seriously.I think we can all forget about this clown now (Sammyscooge) and stop engaging the troll.

Allen:To expand on Sammy’s comment, Lee said “Kill the bill” because he incorrectly read a section about premium increases. (In fairness, he does have diabetes.) He didn’t understand the bill – which isn’t even finalized yet – and started passing around an inaccurate video calling for progressives to throw a monkey wrench in crucial health care reform.

I not only read the bill but the PDF of the bill is IN the video.I had to explain the math to Bob, who admitted he didn’t understand it. Bob is the one who misread the bill, not me.The video was accurate. The insurance companies are going to charge 25% higher premiums to the people who ALREADY couldn’t afford insurance. That’s what the bill allows. That is what the video says.

Here’s the thread on Kill the Bill:http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2009/11/about_mandates.html

Bob…My point was not that if you support the Public Option that there’s no way you can support this bill. You can do both, as you prove…My point was that Redmond lied about my position and claimed that I didn’t support the PO….because I said Kill The Bill.My support for the public option is clear and consistent. That was my very limited point.

Redmond – just cut and paste the part where I said I was opposed to the public option.You’re either lying about me or don’t understand the issues – which one is it?

Lee:>>>I had to explain the math to Bob, who admitted he didn’t understand it. Bob is the one who misread the bill, not me.I was man enough to admit my error. Yes.>>>The video was accurate. The insurance companies are going to charge 25% higher premiums to the people who ALREADY couldn’t afford insurance. That’s what the bill allows. That is what the video says.FACT: Lee is referencing a section about a temporary high-risk pool and not every uninsured American.FACT: A 125% cap is actually significantly less expensive than current high-risk pool premiums.FACT: Participation in this high-risk pool is not mandated by this law and people have to qualify for the program based on certain criteria.FACT: The high-risk pool is only temporary until the health exchanges and the public option are launched.

Allen…call me whatever makes you feel better. Won’t bother me one bit. I call them as I see them and personally don’t care if anyone listens.I’ve been following this blog for over 4 years and have never resorted to any attacks until now. I’ve had it with Lee and his bullshit and I’m in no way sorry for any of what I said. You don’t like it? Too bad.

Lee:>>>My point was not that if you support the Public Option that there’s no way you can support this bill. You can do both, as you prove…What say you about Social Security? Would you have wanted to kill FDR’s bill for not being robust enough?

Bob I’ll take this a bit at a time – what current high risk pool premiums are you talking about?

Bob – the Social Security discussion is beyond the point I was making.I’ve advocated the Public Option any number of times and never said a single thing opposed to a robust public option. Correct?

Lee, I think you mean that the Social Security discussion is not supportive of the point you are making.

Wow. This thread is a bit too ugly. We are just one robust public option away from getting our collective shit back together. But we are not going to have a robust public option. Not yet. It will come in steps.Meanwhile, i am very seriously interested in hearing from Obama’s critics, absent the whining and bitching, on this question I have posed previously (Note: Terry did respond to number 3). She said “compromise is for sissies”). . .What would you do about the fact that:1) The Republicans are in lock step to defeat HCR and will definitely filibuster;2) Our system of legalized bribery has contaminated every element of the political parties;3) Compromise, while very frustrating, is the way things are done in our systemThanks for your anticipated help on these issues.

Norman. No. What I meant was what I said – I was refuting Redmond’s claim that I opposed the public option and didn’t want the conversation to jump around until that was settled.I’m still waiting for Bob’s answer on whether I’ve ever said a single thing indicating I was opposed to a robust public option.

Lee:>>Bob I’ll take this a bit at a time – what current high risk pool premiums are you talking about?I just posted something about them on the main page. Around 31 states already have high-risk pools, but average premiums are 1.5 to 2 times more expensive than standard premiums, and deductibles are three times higher than standard. Plus, the quality of care is shoddy.So the premiums in the current high-risk pools are significantly more expensive than the proposed 125% cap in the House bill. Based on your example from a previous thread…Let’s say an average monthly premium is $800.–Current state high-risk pools: $800×2=$1600 (plus massive 3x deductibles)–House bill high-risk pool cap: $800+$200=$1000–$1000 is more affordable than $1600–Neither of the high-risk pools are mandatory.In other words, high-risk people will benefit from a significant savings under the immediate high-risk pool program in the House bill.

Lee:>>>Bob – the Social Security discussion is beyond the point I was making.No it’s not. You’re making a distinction between robust and weak, while suggesting “weak” must be killed. And I’m asking you whether the weak SS bill should’ve been killed or allowed to expand.

Adding… For low income people there are significant subsidies to help pay the premiums. So people who are high-risk and can’t afford the premiums will get government help.

>>>Bob – the Social Security discussion is beyond the point I was making.Yes, it is.My point is NOT whether a bill should be killed or not. That’s a separate discussion than my point.My point – Redmond claimed that my opposition to the house bill equals me being opposed to the public option.I’m trying to correct a lie about me, Bob. That’s it for righr now.

Lee would have killed the imperfect and “weak” SS bill. Make no mistake.

>> For low income people there are significant subsidies to help pay the premiums. So people who are high-risk and can’t afford the premiums will get government help.No. Low income people will get government help. That means middle and even many working class people WON’T get help and will have an extra bill to pay that they can’t afford.You’re really a strong advocate of the Individual Mandate now, Bob? WTF happened? Obama and other made a really good case against it during the campaign.

Lee:Fine, you’ve been in favor of a public option. However, you’ve also consistently thrown your hands in the air at the drop of a hat and actively encouraged voters to shut down health care reform whenever an anonymous source sends you all a tizzy.Kill the Bill = Stop our chances at any type of public option before the details have even been hashed out. Really no other way to interpret that.

What the hell is going on here?I come here because I enjoy the many opinions everyone brings to the table. Of course I don’t always agree with whats posted or said here but I do appreciate the point of views.I especially love the back and forth between Lee and Bob when they are on opposing sides of an issue. That’s when I learn the most about the topic being discussed.I’m not looking for a site where we all think and speak alike. That said…Lee I appreciate ALL of your contributions and I hope you continue to post here even though some folks are giving you shit.As for you Redmond…I don’t always agree with you either but you’re witty and you put a lot of thought and research into your posts so I’d like to keep you too.

I’m trying to correct a lie about me, Bob. That’s it for righr now.

That pretty much says it all. This has little to do with the issue at hand, and everything to do with your ego.

I’m in agreement Norman. But I’m sure that goes without saying at this point.

Why can’t we all just get along?Damn.It should have been a universal health plan, but the Dems have no balls, or, probably more correctly, the health insurance lobby has the Dems by the balls.Obama has not been a leader on this. He has been unseen, inconsistent and spoken out of both sides of his mouth, in turns. If you all have decided that this makes him some sort of political genius, then that’s your opinion.I don’t share it because I believe that America needs a very open, very honest leader right now. Someone who doesn’t talk bull, doesn’t take bull and will stand up for progessive values. And that is not what Obama has shown over the summer at all.Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am right. Time will tell, but these are just opinions posted here and certainly no reason to devolve into name-calling and childish personal attacks.Y’all should leave that to the Neo-cons.

The current state of the HCR bill:http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/the-public-option-fight-continues–but-whats-in-the-actual-bill.php?ref=fpb*The basic theme of health care reform is that insurance would be mandatory, subsidized and regulated.*for the first many years after enactment, most people in the country would be insured by their employers–in fact, large and medium-sized businesses would be required to provide insurance for their employees.*Uninsured people would either be roped into existing entitlement programs like Medicaid, or REQUIRED TOBUY regulated insurance*Insureres are being handed a captive market*The poor and middle class people would still be on the hook for thousands of dollars a year worth of premiums*The house and senate bill differences:”Though we can’t say for certain how the House and Senate plans will be at odds with one another, some of the key differences are likely to be a). the generosity of the subsidies, b). the way the subsidies and entitlement expansions are paid for, c). the stringency of the mandates, and d). the degree to which private insurers are regulated.”*ONE GOOD THING: And both the House and the Senate would end the practice of “rescission”–canceling peoples’ policies or denying payment once they get sick.

1) The Republicans are in lock step to defeat HCR and will definitely filibuster;Don’t let them. Why did we fight for a Dem majority? So they could cram the shit down the Republican’s throats. During the Bush years, the Repubs locked the Dems out. I don’t have a problem with a little tat for tat when healthcare is at stake.2) Our system of legalized bribery has contaminated every element of the political parties;You are absolutely right. Neither the Democratic Party nor any of its members are going to change this situation. The American public is well aware of it and the President should be calling it where he sees it every time he sees it. If he used the bully pulpit to push the point, Americans would get behind him, and Congress IS afraid of a highly motivated citizenry.3) Compromise, while very frustrating, is the way things are done in our systemDidn’t see any compromise during the Bush years. Did what they wanted, when they wanted while laughing and laughing it up to the bank. And the Democrats didn’t even undo most of the crap that the Repubs screwed up. I used to think compromise was necessary, too. But clearly, it is not.I understand where you are coming from on this and I am not trying to bash Obama. I’m just trying to keep it real. He has made a mess of this whole issue and the constant attempt to reach out to the Republicans isn’t playing well. Time for a new game plan, don’t you think?

Time will tell, but these are just opinions posted here and certainly no reason to devolve into name-calling and childish personal attacks.

The name-calling started a few posts back, with Stranaterri. I suggest you look into it.

As far as this thread goes, Lee came here to accuse everyone of having “not done enough” to support healthcare reform, which I find pretty fucking insulting. A lot of people here have dedicated a lot of time and effort into HCR, I’m sure many have put more time and effort than Stranahan has. When he lashed out at another member with an insult, minus any other content, I responded in like kind. Except I also made a point alongside my insult. One should not dish it out if one cannot take it himself. Lee’s a big boy, I’m sure he can defend himself.

I’m telling people to eff themselves on BobCesca.com

Lee seems rather proud of the insults, in fact.

I think everyone’s point is clear. I learn alot from the back and forth and appreciate the well meaning posts from Bob, Lee and Redmond. I do NOT like the name calling…that is unhelpful and I’m simply going to stop reading any posts that engage in that.Lee supported the Public Option so long as it fit his opinion of what it should be (either Single Payer or very robust). When the PO was reduced to it’s current state lately, he was saying “kill the bill”.Redmond correctly (IMHO) identifies this as a very dangerous tack to take and if that kind of sentiment were to gain traction, then HCR would be dead for at least another generation. As history proves (see Redmonds previous post re: the dates when HCR was taken up by previous administrations)Bob has improved his math skills (just pulling your chain-I can’t even add) by comparing the current rate of high risk pools versus the proposed HCR cap.I personally was ready to seriously protest and engage in civil disobedience when I heard about the mandates without a PO. However, I can accept mandates so long as there is a PO, even a weak one. We have to get our foot in the door and we have to do it NOW. This is REALLY the key sticking point between Bob and Lee. Lee is saying don’t bother with such a weak PO and Bob is saying we have to do what we can do now.

Lee told one person “fuck you”. Me. Not people, as he’s claiming. And it was in response to me telling him he needs help.But again, facts are ignored in Lee’s world in his attempts to make himself look better. Might I add that if he didn’t welcome the discourse, he wouldn’t be nudging his readers over here.

Oh, Sammy, would you like to go on a man-date with me?

Irish Girl:Thanks! But that definitely wasn’t me who wrote about the dates of previous HCR attempts. (I believe it was Broadway Carl.) I am nowhere near that good with political history.

Stranahan:>>>No. Low income people will get government help. That means middle and even many working class people WON’T get help and will have an extra bill to pay that they can’t afford.Huh? I’ll assume you’re saying that there aren’t subsidies in the HCR bills. But there are, in fact, subsidies in the bill.And people WON’T have an extra bill if they decide not apply for immediate high-risk pool assistance.I can’t debate you if you’re going to make things up, Lee. You can’t just write that there aren’t subsidies when there are ABSOLUTELY subsidies in all of the HCR bills, including the shitty Finance bill.>>>You’re really a strong advocate of the Individual Mandate now, Bob? WTF happened?I always have been. I was only opposed to it if there wasn’t going to be a public option escape hatch to avoid paying the private cartel.And I repeat: single-payer has individual mandates. They might not be specifically labeled “individual mandates” but everyone 65 and older, for example, has to buy into Medicare, which is single-payer. If they refuse and choose to opt-out, they lose their Social Security benefits. Mandates.Current HCR bills have mandates, but there’s a public option. So if you choose the public option from the exchanges, it would be no different than the mandates in Medicare (or single-payer in Canada, France, etc).

madashellliberalThank you for your response to my serious questions. I need a little amplification on this one:> > 1) The Republicans are in lock step to defeat HCR and will definitely filibuster;> > Don’t let them. Why did we fight for a Dem majority? So they could cram the shit down the Republican’s throats. During the Bush years, the Repubs locked the Dems out. I don’t have a problem with a little tat for tat when healthcare is at stake.How would the Dems accomplish “Don’t let them”? I am only aware of a 60 vote cloture. They don’t have these votes at this point. Also, what is “tat for tat” in this context?

Irishgirl,Thanks for the history. I am relatively new here and don’t necessarily visit every day.I can understand that the provoking and name-calling was coming from both sides and was based upon a lot of history that I had no knowledge of, but I still wish that people would nix the personal attacks as they are not constructive.I am sick and effing tired of the notion that the right can be catered to and moderates are worshipped as gods, but liberals and progressives and their issues can be ignored for the good of the rest. That is the undercurrent that ran through the healthcare debate all summer long. It’s bullshit and I’m tired of it.Let the pendulum swing fully both ways. It’s the only way we will get our one step forward before the neanderthals rise again and pull us two steps back.

Hielo,The “don’t let them” is accomplished by using the reconciliation process as discussed in the following links:http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/25/nation/na-healthcare25http://www.americablog.com/2009/04/democrats-can-avoid-filibuster-games-on.htmlThe tit for tat is just a reference to the fact that during the Bush administration Democrats were locked out of the process many times when bills were being proposed and discussed.Though if you google “Democrats locked out” all google will return is stories where the Democrats locked out the Republicans, but I clearly remember news stories about this during the Bush administration when the Republicans were in power.

Norman:Would it still be a man-date if I were to disclose that I’m actually a female?

Hielo, I have attempted to answer your question, but am suddenly finding my posts needing to be approved before posting. Don’t know what that’s all about, maybe because I added some links?? If that’s the case, this reply should post and my answer to your question should post eventually.Hint: it has to do with budget reconciliation.

Debating opposing viewpoints is all well a good, accept when one side of the debate ignores the facts and lacks any measure of tact. Falsly placing one’s self on a pedestal will justifiably draw fire.

Bob,First, I never said there aren’t subsidies. Ever. I said – subsidies don’t cover everyone. That’s true. Be – can you people stop putting words in m mouth?Second, when it come to ‘individual mandates, you are so wrong this and it indicates you don’t understand health care reform.There are at least threw distinct positions you are are mashing together.1) Single Payer2) What Obama supported in the election – no individual mandates3) What Hillary / Edwards supported in the election – Individual MandatesThose 3 are DIFFERENT, Bob. They aren’t the same positions. If you don’t grasp that, the least you can do is stop confusing your readers about it.

Norman – if you’re going to quote my Twitter stream, trying quoting the WHOLE THING.You quoted this…I’m telling people to eff themselves on BobCesca.comAnd then you said “Lee seems rather proud of the insults, in fact.”But – - the whole Tweet was…I should probably get @RJEskow to help with the ‘right speech’ thing; I’m telling people to eff themselves on BobCesca.comand was a reference to an article RJ wrote in a Buddhist magazine – my tweet says the OPPOSITE of what you claim..Liar.

You mean… I didn’t read the whole thing?Sounds familiar.

I am SO sick of people arguing against me by lying about what I’ve said. Redmond, Norm, Bob – lying is wrong. Stop doing it.

No, I mean you misquoted me on purpose. Some boards would kick people off for doing that.

@ Lee – it doesn’t matter how many videos you make if nobody fucking watches them. Most of your videos have…..what, about 2,000 views? 3,000? And a large chunk of those views probably only came because they were embedded on this very blog. Stop being a self-righteous asshole and act like doing shitty voice-over videos for people who ALREADY AGREE WITH YOU is somehow ultra-important, and that you’re the only one doing your part.I can’t speak for everyone else on this blog, but at least some of us have been:1) Donating money2) Making calls (a lot of them)3) Sending emails (a lot of them)4) Donating our time to local community organizing groups5) Talking to our normally non-political friends about the need for healthcare reform (often using Bob & Redmond’s posts as ammo)6) Donating our time to our state branch of the ACLUAll you’ve done is:1) Bitch2) Moan3) Make youtube videos that nobody watches4) Tell other people that they aren’t doing their part because they aren’t also making youtube videos that nobody watches.Seriously man, the holier-than-thou thing is getting tiresome. You’re becoming a self-aggrandizing malcontent. Piss the fuck off.

You are the ones who gave up on the President. You did nothing.

Liar.

Rogect – perfect example. You don’t know a thing about what I do, obviously.And I’m sure Bob won’t correct you about my resume or say a word in defense of my shitty videos – because Bob frankly caused this.

Lee:Feel free to elaborate on what you do, and how you’ve been so helpful.I’d love to read it. You don’t need Bob to do it. Go ahead. I’m listening.

You’re little more than a troll at this point, Lee.

I am not playing your game.

Lee wrote:

First, I never said there aren’t subsidies. Ever. I said – subsidies don’t cover everyone. That’s true. Be – can you people stop putting words in m mouth?

Then I’ll put your own words in your mouth. You wrote: “…middle and even many working class people WON’T get help and will have an extra bill to pay that they can’t afford.”That’s not true. Subsidies in the House bill cover people up to 400% of the poverty level. That means a family of four earing $66,000 will get help from the government. A family of four earning $66,000 is middle class, Lee. And working class.

Second, when it come to ‘individual mandates, you are so wrong this and it indicates you don’t understand health care reform.There are at least threw distinct positions you are are mashing together.

I’m making a point about consistency, Lee. Your position is that mandates are wrong. So do you or do you not support a mandate to enroll in Medicare? Do you or do you not support a mandate to buy into the French insurance system?

Please Lee? You said that I obviously don’t know a thing about what you do, aside from your youtube videos.I’d really like to know what it is that you do. Or are you not going to tell me, because the answer is “jack shit,” aside from the aforementioned unwatched videos?

It won’t hurt my feelings, Lee. You ignore any valid point being made around here, so it’s par for the course.

For the record, I like all of Lee’s videos except for the most recent one which is misleading at best.Seriously, while I vigorous disagree with Lee on this topic and how he’s chosen to debate it, Lee’s videos are really great.

Bob – I like some of Lee’s videos too! But the point is that he gets on here with this “holier-than-thou” attitude because he made a youtube video with 3,000 views, and then says that the rest of us aren’t doing our part. At this point, I can only assume that “doing our part” = agreeing with him.Norman – right on brother.

Ho. Ly. Cow.@madashelliberal: I appreciated this part of your post the mostest “Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am right. Time will tell, but these are just opinions posted here”@Lee: You are more than entitled to your own opinion. But to come here and say that no one worked to get health care reform passed is insulting and close-minded–and not true. There have been plenty of times on past posts where various people have said they just called/emailed/tweeted their reps and the WH about the need for a robust public option. Bob consistently posted contact info–and your videos.To this: “I thought the President was working hard for a public option and had laid out clearly exactly what form of the public option he supported. Huh – but you’re all noting that this is something new.” Just because something is being treated as ‘new’ by the media does not make it so. As stated above I have been receiving emails from OFA, BarackObama twitter, and various members of Congress since before the summer recess urging me to call, etc. in suport of a robust public option.@Allonfla: Apparently, it is not all love.

Here’s the game – and I’m not going to play it.If I bring up things I’ve done, you’ll just…1) Downplay themor2) Say I’m an egotistical asshole for mentioning themWatch – I’ll try. I write for the Huffington Post and I did long before Bob asked me to blog here.

A few observations – “I’m not going to play it.” — LEE…….5 lines later – “I write for the Huffington Post.” — Lee.Referencing my options in response, I’m actually not going to do either:1) Downplay them? No; I think it’s cool that you write for the Huffington Post.2) Say you’re an egotistical asshole for mentioning it? No, you’re an asshole either way.But regardless, you seem to have misunderstood me, Lee. I’m not asking what it is you do IN GENERAL. I already know that you write at the HuffingtonPost, and a quick look at your bio there could give me an idea of what it is you do in general. I don’t need you to tell me THAT.What I AM talking about is what you’ve done with respect to the issue in question – namely, reforming our healthcare system. The videos started out helpful, but based on the # of views and the likely demographic of the people viewing them, they’re not likely to be of much help (especially given their increasingly pessimistic nature).Writing for the Huffington Post is a noteworthy accomplishment, but it doesn’t actually contribute to healthcare reform unless you use that soapbox in a positive manner (hell, Joe Scarborough writes at HuffPo – does that mean he’s helping the cause of healthcare reform?) And from what I can tell, your writing there mirrors your comments here – you were hoping for single payer, and since you’re not going to get it, you’re going to stamp your feet and act like a malcontent every step of the way. Which…in case you’re wondering…is not a helpful approach to achieving meaningful healthcare. You’d be better served trying to positively push people towards a stronger public option instead of making a godamn video saying we completely kill the House bill.So I ask you again – what have you done that is so helpful to achieving meaningful healthcare reform that it gives you the right to come on here and lecture the rest of us for not doing our parts?

Rogect8:Yeah well we know Lee is very good at deflecting.Lee:Too bad your stuff isn’t half as popular as Bob’s at HuffPo. Also too bad he has given you so much time and latitude on his blog.

You are completely wrong about my position and you express it in an insulting way.Single payer is a better policy but I spent a lot more time arguing for a strong public option because (wrongly, IMO) Single Payer was taken off the table right away and a PO was all we had.I take the position of many other progressives – this bill will make things worse.I never accused people on this blog of doing nothing to support health care reform. I accused them – rightly, IMO – of doing nothing to push the White House and President Obama. That is what this post was about and what my comments were on. And they were clear….Got that? My comments were aimed at people who wanted health care reform but DIDN’T call the President on his part in compromising health care.”Thank the people who were calling, writing and urging the White House to come out for a strong public option.”The White House. See that? Very specific.Many progressives, including but obviously not just me and certainly not most importantly me – saw the problem with the White House’s weak tea compromising months ago. We called them on it.And Bob and this blog criticized us, repeatedly. He insulted that criticism and made it sound crazy.

Sammy is doing what I said people would do. It’s pathetic. Tell us, Sammy – what have you done?

Lee:I don’t have to disclose anything to you. I’m not the self-important type so I feel no need to list off the things I’ve done. I know what I’ve done and that’s all that matters.You put yourself out there Lee. So don’t complain when people call you on your bullshit.

Lee,I suppose my reaction is the result of the fact that you come across as condescending to anybody who doesn’t agree with you. I can’t remember the post, but a few days ago you jumped into an ongoing discussion on one of Redmond’s posts (I think it was about Lieberman…?) and made some smart-ass comment implying that we are all Obama-worshippers. Completely off topic, and in apropos of nothing. Why, man? What does that accomplish?Or to take another random example, you keep asking Redmond questions like “Who are you again?” every time he disagrees with you…as if he’s somehow less important than you, or his opinion carries less weight than yours. I’ve seen you do it on at least 3 separate threads now. It comes across as condescending.On this very thread you responded to him by asking ‘How many videos have YOU made?’. I can’t say it enough times – it comes across as condescending (not to mention self-aggrandizing).

No – it’s literal. I have no idea who Redmond is. None, zero. I know he blogs here. That’s all I know. Elvis has a blog. Bob, I know.And we’ve already established that Redmond will make up stuff about me until he;s forced to admit he was wrong.I have already told Bob privately that allowing Redmond to refer to me as a “YouTube uploader’ was a bullshit move on Bob’s part. Redmond may not know anything else I’ve done, but Bob does.And it puts me in a bullshit position to have to explain other stuff I’ve done – so all I see from Redmond is a loudmouth who lies about people, insults their accomplishments and gets away with because he’s singing the same song as Bob on this issue.Oh, yeah – he’s Batman. Hilarious!I have no idea who he is and I have no respect for him. He’s a suckup. That much I know.

@Lee: “I never accused people on this blog of doing nothing to support health care reform. I accused them – rightly, IMO – of doing nothing to push the White House and President Obama. That is what this post was about and what my comments were on. And they were clear….”Your comments were aimed at everyone on this blog–”You are the ones who gave up on the President. You did nothing.” Many people here have said that what you said was not true–though I notice that the only person you now exclude from your invective is Eric. I guess you are entitled to the opinion that if we didn’t all email you everytime we contacted the WH then we didn’t do anything. I guess then you’ve “accused [us]-rightly”.What I find so upsetting is that I think you’re a smart guy who can argue his points well. But it’s really hard to get to that when you can’t even admit that you were wrong about this point.

No, J – sorry. The comments were directed at the blog in general and specifically at the ones chuckling smugly in the comments. OBVIOUSLY, there are some people here who may have been critical of President here…but not many as far as I can tell. Any of them are excluded.Look – it’s been a miserable few months for me here. I wrote about it on my own blog. Bob decided to marginalize and insult the position that I and a lot of other held. It’s been no fun.

Let me add to that…It’s Bob’s blog. That gives him an immediate advantage over anyone else who blogs here in terms of gravitas.Rather than use that power to to keep things on an even keel, I feel like I was bullied into silence by Bob. And I feel like most of the rest of the blog followed suit. Lord of the flies and all that.Personally, I would never ask anyone to blog on my site and then treat them the way Bob treated me. It fucked with my head, no question about it. I don’t think Bob meant any harm, per se- but it’s not at ALL the way I would have handled it.

*Sigh*Lee – It seems pretty clear that there’s a “just who the fuck do you think YOU are talking to ME like that?” element to the way you’ve been talking to Redmond, as opposed to just a curiosity regarding all of the things you don’t know about him. Though of course I can’t speak to the rest of the interaction between you two or how the whole thing got started.It kinda ties in with what “J” posted just above and what I’ve already mentioned. There’s a fine line between snark and condescension, and it seems to me that you’ve been opting for the latter recently. (I could be wrong, but it’s obvious from this thread that I’m not the only one who thinks so).On a personal note, I’m sorry to see things devolve into these sorts of arguments. I usually enjoy your work very much….and I apologize for my disparaging remarks about your videos, etc. I did it in the context of trying to make a point, but it was a dick move nonetheless. I just think you could make a much bigger impact if you took a more constructive approach.

I appreciate you saying that and I hope I’ve offered some wider context – not to justify anything, but to at least explain.

LeeI think you are viewing the progress of HCR through the prism of your own health issues. That is not a selfish or impractical process. If this is so, then I totally understand where you are coming from in your criticism of the House bill as it gets weakened. I think you have a lot of company here.But to watch our incredible coalition crumble because of this legislative process is very painful.I truly enjoyed your HCR videos and contributed to your cause. I have, however, been extremely angry at some of your comments on this blog. I have a lot of company here.What are the chances of calling a truce and working together in a positive way to influence the outcome of the final bill?@madashellliberalI am aware of the reconciliation alternative that has been proposed. Somehow, I came to the conclusion that a resulting health care package would be far worse than the current House bill. Whatever, thanks for your response. I am moving on to Bob’s HuffPo piece.

Lee:For someone who feels he’s been treated so poorly by Bob, you certainly have no problem continuing to come here and use his blog to further your own interests.In addition, your grandstanding is reprehensible. Put your big boy pants on and stop complaining about how awful you feel Bob has been to you or stop posting here altogether. This is Bob’s blog…he is free to do as he pleases. If that includes asking you to stop doing something he doesn’t support, then so be it. Grow up and grow a pair.

Growing a pair doesn’t consist of running away and being bullied into post by the likes of you.Why don’t you trying adding something of substance?

Man, I came back to Bob’s blog because someone told me that Lee doesn’t post here anymore… I got punk’d.

Lee:I’m not addressing the rest of the martyr act you got going on here, but I just want to say there’s a world of difference between “lying about someone” and not being able to keep track of their 50 million position changes on the public option. Again, how silly of me to confuse the maker of “Kill the Bill” with someone who doesn’t want a shot at a public option. The fuck was I thinking?Batman out.

Lee:You don’t know what I contribute or what I do outside of this blog. As far as “adding something of substance” to this blog, I’m doing just that by calling you out on your bullshit. You know, the grandstanding and attempts to embarrass and shame Bob, the misrepresentation of facts, the lies, the constant pushing of your own agenda…I could go on but I’m sure you get the picture.Again, if you are so unhappy with your treatment here, then I’m sure you know where the door is. Oh and don’t follow this up with yet another “bully” argument. That is getting old. If you can’t take the criticism, then it is indeed, time to grow a pair.