Cut the Crap, Part 2

Another blogger has entirely misinterpreted my Huffington Post column this week about the president’s Afghanistan strategy.

Let me be perfectly clear about this. I do not support the war, nor do I support escalating the war.

However, I do support making an attempt to repair one of the most colossal fuck-ups in the history of American foreign policy, and I only support this fix with very limited parameters and very significant caveats, most of which I outlined in the column.

I have no idea if 30,000 troops makes sense as a means to that end, or if entirely bugging out tomorrow will do the trick. That’s the conundrum. No one knows for sure. I do know, however, that we kind of owe it to the Afghan people to at least try to clean up our mess before we bail out — since, after all, we rushed in there guns blazing and nearly destroyed whatever crappy resources they had in the first place. And one of the potentially horrific and unintended consequences was driving the Taliban and al-Qaeda into neighboring Pakistan: an unstable nation with nuclear weapons.

To that point, this blogger writes:

Let’s deal with this ridiculous argument that if we don’t send in the Marines the “terrorists” will somehow steal away Pakistan’s nukes and explode them in the middle of Manhattan.

That’s absolutely not what I wrote or implied. Clearly, the danger is the Taliban or another radical Islamic group overthrowing Pakistan’s government and thus seizing its nukes. I thought this possibility has been mostly accepted by even anti-war liberals. Pakistan’s nuclear weapons aren’t speculative. They’re real. And the Taliban wants them. Haven’t we talked about this?

This blogger also writes:

…Bob Cesca, the Huffington Post’s bearded-progressive-in-residence, who starts off with the most familiar of the White House talking points: don’t be surprised, you knew this was coming – that is, you would have known if you had listened during the campaign, because Obama always said Afghanistan had to be dealt with, etc., ad nauseam.

You know, presenting a fact in a snarky tone doesn’t make the fact less real. Fact: the president never promised to withdraw. How is repeating this fact an unfair or out of bounds point to make? In fact, the only 2008 candidates who promised to withdraw were Dennis Kucinich and, I think, Ron Paul.

The progressive favorite for most of the primary campaign was John Edwards, who supported “finishing the job” in Afghanistan. Four years earlier, both nominee John Kerry and 2004 progressive favorite Howard Dean supported finishing the job in Afghanistan. Many progressive supporters also repeated the familiar mantra: Bush took is eye off Afghanistan in order to invade Iraq.

So in an admittedly general sense, Afghanistan has never been seriously opposed by mainstream progressives — until, that is, President Obama opted to do what he always intended to do (with the addition of a 2011 withdrawal pledge). Would this apparent progressive backlash/backpedal on Afghanistan have taken place if it was President John Edwards or President Howard Dean? I have no idea. But my entire Af-Pak-speech reaction shouldn’t come as any surprise, since I was one of those progressive supporters cheering candidate Obama (also candidates Kerry, Dean, Clinton, Edwards) whenever they spoke of “finishing the job.”

But it’s become easy, for some reason, to bolster one’s progressive cred by attacking and misrepresenting anyone who even faintly endorses the president’s agenda, regardless of the endorser’s nuance or caution. I mean, I’ve been repeatedly clear about my opposition to the war and my opposition to an open-ended escalation — and I was very clear that my very faint support could vaporize in a heartbeat if the situation cascades out of hand, politically or strategically. Yet to read some of these reactions, you’d think I had suddenly transformed into a Brundlefly chimera of Dick Cheney, Ted Nugent and R. Lee Ermey.

Sheesh.

Adding… Guess the candidate who wrote this:

After the horrific attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 awoke America to the danger of terrorism, making Americans more secure should have been our nation’s top priority. [...]

Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mohammed Omar remain at large. Far from being destroyed, terrorist network al-Qaida has dispersed and been reconstituted – with Osama bin Laden reported to have convened a terrorist summit in the Afghan mountains just last April. The Taliban is again on the move, threatening the safety and security of whole swaths of Afghanistan. [...]

Before it is too late, we must take the steps that most agree will make us truly safer. This will require forcefully challenging terrorism in a united effort with other nations, improving domestic security and enlisting Arab and Muslim countries’ support for the war on terror.

We’re not in this alone

To win the war on terror, we must be prepared to use the iron fist of our superb military. These efforts must be aggressive and make better use of special-operations forces and CIA operatives.

That was Howard Dean from his official campaign website in 2004.

Danger of terrorism? September 11? Iron fist? CIA operatives? Winning the war on terror? I don’t recall progressives lining up to condemn Howard Dean’s hawkish position five years ago. Today, President Obama is condemned as being Just Like Bush for daring to repeat the phrases “war on terror” and “September 11″ in a speech.

I just don’t get it.

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  • Allonfla

    OH WOW!! I didn’t know Howard Dean said that. He sounds just like….Obama! In fact, all the other Dem candidates sounded like neither of them knew exactly what to do with Afghanistan. “Finishing the job” can mean a lot of things.

  • roxsteady

    They don’t get it either Bob! I guess he thinks nuance is that thing you perform to raise the dead? I get your position because mine is the same. I hate war but, I never heard the President say we’d leave right after he took office. He said he’d finish the job. I’m willing to wait and see. It’s not like we have a choice. Frankly, the people who see this as an either or need to grow up.

  • http://www.windonwater.net QueenTiye

    Well, the blog is called “Antiwar.com.” I think that just about answers all questions. Like with the healthcare debate – some people have a fundamental inability to deal honestly with opinions that aren’t their own. I detest it whenever I see it, and pray that anyone catching me at that game calls me on it, pronto.One thing I’ll say. There are two ways to interpret the ongoing habit of people to see Obama as meaning other than he said. Either he is skillfully weaving narratives that let everyone see the world the way they want to, or our politics are so polarized that we have no way of dealing with nuance than to force it into an either/or narrative of our choosing.I think its the 2nd. Obama goes about clearly articulating a nuanced position, and those extremely polarized listeners either choose to hear “he really agrees with me, but can’t say that because of those OTHER guys” or “he really is a secret muslim terrorist communist, but can’t say that because we’d smoke him out of his hole.” Or something.QT

  • Gottverdammt Klaus

    Bob,There’s a distinction without a difference here. On one hand you say you oppose the war and escalation… but, however tepidly, you do support the President in achieving his military objective in the region. I salute you.No sane person enjoys war. War is a tool – a brutal, unpleasant tool, often used thoughlessly. In this case, those who have a grasp of the modern geopolitical situation acknowledge that Afghanistan and Pakistan require a good deal more than foreign aid and good intentions.It calls for a stabilization that, as the President stated and every elected Democrat (minus Kucinich) has observed for years, must be fought for and won.It isn’t pretty. It isn’t a thing to dance in the streets about. Nevertheless it is the right thing to do right now.If that isn’t supporting the war, I’m not sure what is.

  • alopecia

    After the Red Army got its ass handed to it in Afghanistan, in part due to the US arming the mujahideen to the teeth, the Reagan administration lost all interest in the country and, for the most part, the region. The result was chaos and instability for the thick end of a decade, which ended when the Taliban took control of Afghanistan.The Afghan people supported the rise of the Taliban for just that reason: they promised stability.If the US immediately pulled out of Afghanistan every soldier, sailor, airman and Marine, every CIA agent—in short, if we followed the example of St. Ronaldus Magnus of hallowed memory—precisely what does the “get out now” crowd think would happen differently from before?”Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” -Albert EinsteinMe, I’d rather flood the country with aid workers and money to build and rebuild infrastructure, but what do I know?

  • MrBrink

    Yeah I read that this morning.Bob, even the best dissent in this debate is still the weaker argument.I wish it wasn’t, but it is.Raimondo isn’t thinking, here. He’s feeling, and apparently, scorching Earth. Beware Justin’s wrath!!!…and sloppy irresponsible point of dissent.I kind of felt bad for him after reading that.

  • JDS

    There is no reason why this guy could not have expressed his views without being offensive. The main point he made was how much he detests Obama and anyone who does not detest Obama also.Those people like him would never like any elected leader because no one they support could ever be elected.Bob,you made very cogent points in your piece and that guy is beyond reaching.

  • Hielo

    I tend to oversimplify. No doubt. But I firmly believe that the the anti-Obama stance from the leftbaggers is ego-driven.They elected the smartest president ever. Surely, he would see the light regarding Af-pak just like they have all along. Screw his campaign pledges. He should get out now.The leftbaggers do not have to attend top-level security briefings. They do not have to totally understand the big picture. They get it based on a sincere belief (like the rest of us) that war just sucks. Very simple for them.And there are other very simple things that can be done. Obama should exercise his dictatorial powers to install Medicare for all and close Guantanamo tomorrow. Very simple. Why doesn’t this smart president just “get it”?Having said all this, I will add an issue that drives me batshit: How does eliminating a terrorist haven in Af-Pak prevent the planning of terrorist activity elsewhere. It’s a pretty big world.

  • jhw22

    @Hielo, I have only had a chance to skim and can’t comment more right now, but I wanted to say something to your last paragraph “Having said all this, I will add an issue that drives me batshit: How does eliminating a terrorist haven in Af-Pak prevent the planning of terrorist activity elsewhere. It’s a pretty big world.” The way I see it the Af-Pak situation is like a huge fire ant mound that requires serious, smelly poison whereas a spray can handle the smaller lumps that develop throught the yard.There will be cells throughout the world even if the major opportunity for a base is destroyed. But the smaller cells can be handled more efficiently and as needed.Jennifer

  • http://www.windonwater.net QueenTiye

    Hielo – it doesn’t and President Obama didn’t say it would. But having the Taliban suddenly in control of Pakistani nukes is a bad thing. We’re sweating enough with North Korea having nukes.QT

  • Allonfla

    I think everyone should read this article:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/asia/06reconstruct.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&src=twt&twt=nytimesThis was not a decision that was made flippantly.

  • Hielo

    @ Jhw22The fire ant analogy makes sense . . . if Al Queda is the only Islamic (or whatever) terrorist group that hates us and can act thereon. I hope this is the case.@ QTThe nuke thing is extremely troublesome and I agree with that, if Pakistan is susceptible to overthrow by the Taliban, that our course of conduct is correct. I have total faith in our President to make that decision. But the “big world” thing continues to be a big problem for me. I have been in times past, a confirmed isolationist in the sense that we should do all that is possible to defend our country and let the rest of the world go to Hell. Obviously, I grew older and, hopefully, smarter. But, I wonder about how many wars we can fight on foreign soil. Is the national debt the limit? Is there a number of casualties that becomes too many?

  • Hielo

    AllonfiaI just finished that incredibly thorough and well-written article you referenced.We elected the right person. Smart!Do you think the leftbaggers (currently very quiet) will read it?

  • http://www.windonwater.net QueenTiye

    I think, Hielo, that we would not have chosen war just because of the threat to Pakistan. We went to war against Al-Qaida, and consequently destabilized Afghanistan. While dithering along and running off to another war in Iraq, the Taliban became stronger, Al-Qaida regrouped,and all of this along the Pakistan border. In other words – we created this condition. It’s not a case of a big world with us the police – its a case of us being responsible for a mess we created.That’s the core distinction, at least to my mind.QT

  • Hielo

    QTI totally agree. Thank you for your comments.

  • Sr. Wrangler

    QT:I agree. We made this mess and have to deal with it. Nice turn of the “dithering” thing as well.

  • jhw22

    Can I ask a favor? If any of you see me at the Daily Kos arguing with assholes, please slap me.Jennifer

  • jhw22

    Regarding the nukes in Pakistan. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Obama’s new plan buys him some time to get everyone on board nuclear de-escalation. Wouldn’t that be worth a little longer in Afghanistan?JDS is exactly right. They wouldn’t be happy had Hillary won because we’d be doing the same or worse — likely worse. She is far more hawkish than Obama. Not one VIABLE Democrat would be getting us out now or with fewer troops.@Hielo, the leftbaggers have read it and their takeaway is the line from an anonymous advisor that Obama is at peace with his decision and the line that he didn’t even allow withdrawl on the table. That whole article and they are flipping out about the two most under-supported comments. The line about withdrawl not being on the table isn’t backed up or followed by any “because….”. And the Peace comment freaks people out because they think he likes war now.Oh, and Bob, As for the beard comment, I love beards. My husband has one and they’re “in” right now. However, you appear to have more of a 8 O’Clock shadow so he lost all credibility with that point alone. (Unless you’ve gone full beard and I don’t know about it).Jennifer

  • Allonfla

    @Hielo: Even if they read the article, they would only, as Jennifer proved, would only pick out stuff that fits their already set in stone opinions.

  • danann

    I’m an anti-war advocate. But its not that simple. Instead of getting all snarky and running down our own leaders, I’m trying to to look at this more deeply. To see what our intelligence is trying to do here. That is dfferentiate between who attacked our land and need to come to justice. and which militant groups can be brought into the political process. This will be a process that needs an intelligent leader. We have one

  • http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/ Political Party Pooper

    The real question is, Bob, if the very same decision That President Obama just made had been made by Bush, what would your response have been? What would every Liberal’s response have been?I agree with our President’s thoroughly contemplated decision. But there will always be people who believe that when it comes to dealing with evil, all you have to do is stick your head in the sand and somehow, the terrorists will go away.These insane whack-jobs will not go away. It doesn’t really matter where you fight them; we’ll be fighting them for quite a while yet. QAfghanistan is important for a lot of reasons; not the least of which is India, who will do just about anything…and I mean anything, to make sure that AQ never gets its hands on nukes. No one hates radical muslims more than India, and unlike us, they won’t be gentle about it. It was very telling that President Obama’s first state inner was held in honor of India’s leader, and the timing could not have been more obvious.If you read between the lines, it is possible that India told President Obama and our millitary kleaders that if we donn’t solve the AQ problem in Pakistan and Afghanistan, they will.Now, who here would want to see what that would look like?

  • http://www.bobcesca.com Bob_Cesca

    PPP asked:>>>>if the very same decision That President Obama just made had been made by Bush, what would your response have been? What would every Liberal’s response have been?My response would have been very different. Why? Because the Bushies proved themselves to be incompetent and nefarious. The current team appears to be more thoughtful, deliberative and competent. There are major differences between the two administrations, despite what some to my left seem to think.

  • jhw22

    Regarding the question I’ve seen a lot lately about what if Bush made this choice: had Bush made this decision YEARS ago, I would have agreed with him. I never disagreed with Bush for the sake of disagreement. I disagreed with him on policies that were based on lies, arrogance, short-sightedness and ignorance. I WANTED him to make changes in Afghanistan. But Bush screwed up, and we all know it, by invading Iraq and ignoring Afghanistan. So Obama choosing to focus on Afghanistan, whether everyone agrees with how he’s focusing or not, the fact that’s he is paying attention deserves a big “FINALLY!!”Jennifer