No Second Chances

I think some who favor killing the bill hope that it leads to a even bigger healthcare crisis down the road, at which point the American people will demand single payer and the destruction of private insurers. I know I feel that way sometimes. That’s how frustrated and disillusioned I am at this point. Having said that, anyone who thinks we can kill the bill and start over again is dreaming in Technicolor.

Heeeheheheheheeeeee!!!Some of the “progressives” are “stressing” to the point of “regressing,” but I digress…Who’s going to listen to them or you next time, Mr. Cesca?All the campaigning. All the sweat and tears at the end of it all. The celebrating as a result. All gone to pot in less than a year.Who’s going to believe in anything the “progressives” have to say after this president goes down? Who?The conundrum is this: demonize the Obama administration at your own peril, progressives or whatever you’re calling yourselves this week.Bob, you might as well expand your outlook to their entire mission some of us claim we seek to see established.Not that I did not anticipate an about face while observing the highly volatile primaries last year, but I did not think it would come this early (actually, I expected it much, much earlier – ZING!).Some of you want to play drama queens at the administration’s expense – heheheheh – you’ll get no attention paid to you next time.Humph, if there’s even a next time. Chances are, in the neocon utopia, we won’t even be allowed to vote for anything other than the strength of the American Empire’s military response to not being attacked by Mars.

Agreed! It’s reality vs ideology. I’m Kucinich left but once I’ve thrown my usual tantrum I always cool off and choose reality.And I still say that as voters our response must be to elect the most liberal or progressive candidate possible, and where that’s impossible at least try for the most centrist candidate possible.

This whole process has been very stressful. I think I can say with certainty that politics is not for me. But I agree with you, Bob. As watered down as this bill is, there’s no other choice but to pass it. I’m just tired of all the infighting. Can’t we all just get along?

Single-payer. Straight up, for everyone – senators, veterans, EVERYONE.It’s the only way to fly.This crapfuck joke of a process is an embarrassment. The bill that results from it is an insult.America spends more than twice the amount (as a % of GDP) as any country with a sane health care delivery system, leaves folks on the street, and the quality of care is (at best) barely equivalent to Canada, Britain, France, Singapore, Taiwan, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany…Shameful.

Yes. Kill the Bill.Of course it won’t be killed because Barack Obama pulls off yet another sleight of hand. It’s 100% clear to everyone what Obama’s game is. If you can’t figure it out, you’re slow. Just like “Gitmo North”. He said he’d close Guantanamo. He is. He’s just moving it north to Illinois. Same rules. Same indefinite detentions. Same no habeus corpus. But hey!! He closed Gitmo, just like he said he would.This man is the biggest sham in the history of the presidency. Ever. He’s a con man, pure and simple. Now he gets to run on passing “health care reform”, after creating the single biggest corporate giveaway in human history.When all those people who are forced to buy insurance start having their claims routinely denied, what will the headline on bobcesca.com be? I’m sure you’ll still be proud. Anything to protect the flim-flam man.I will not only NOT vote Democrat, I am voting Republican. I don’t like being made a fool of. Fuck these worthless scumbags.

The people who want to kill the bill remind me of the Judean People’s Front Crack Suicide Squad. “That showed ‘em!”

Of course, I always got torn a new one for saying there would never be a public option. Why? Was I lying?Greenwald today:

Glenn GreenwaldWednesday, Dec 16, 2009 05:17 ESTWhite House as helpless victim on healthcareBy Glenn GreenwaldAPPresident Barack Obama makes a statement on health care reform after meeting with Senators, Tuesday, Dec. 15, 2009, at the White House in Washington. From left are, Senate Banking Committee Chairman Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn.; Senate Finance Committee Chairman Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont.; the president; and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nev.(updated below)Of all the posts I wrote this year, the one that produced the most vociferious email backlash — easily — was this one from August, which examined substantial evidence showing that, contrary to Obama’s occasional public statements in support of a public option, the White House clearly intended from the start that the final health care reform bill would contain no such provision and was actively and privately participating in efforts to shape a final bill without it. From the start, assuaging the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries was a central preoccupation of the White House — hence the deal negotiated in strict secrecy with Pharma to ban bulk price negotiations and drug reimportation, a blatant violation of both Obama’s campaign positions on those issues and his promise to conduct all negotiations out in the open (on C-SPAN). Indeed, Democrats led the way yesterday in killing drug re-importation, which they endlessly claimed to support back when they couldn’t pass it. The administration wants not only to prevent industry money from funding an anti-health-care-reform campaign, but also wants to ensure that the Democratic Party — rather than the GOP — will continue to be the prime recipient of industry largesse.As was painfully predictable all along, the final bill will not have any form of public option, nor will it include the wildly popular expansion of Medicare coverage. Obama supporters are eager to depict the White House as nothing more than a helpless victim in all of this — the President so deeply wanted a more progressive bill but was sadly thwarted in his noble efforts by those inhumane, corrupt Congressional “centrists.” Right. The evidence was overwhelming from the start that the White House was not only indifferent, but opposed, to the provisions most important to progressives. The administration is getting the bill which they, more or less, wanted from the start — the one that is a huge boon to the health insurance and pharmaceutical industry.

Exactly right. Stop with the god damn platitudes about Obama. It is literally nauseating to watch otherwise reasonable and intelligent people embarrass themselves with their endless apologies for this man.

Then, cousin, stay and fight.Don’t let me hear about Obama “selling out,” or how this is not salvageable.You want to fight, then damn it, FIGHT.Get those “liberal or progressive” candidates in there, and don’t go for the okie-doke.Independents like me have your backs, because we know the alternative is nothing at all. You’re all following this thing too carefully, these setbacks were bound to occur with the tenuous relationship the liberal agenda has ALWAYS had with the mainstream (and not by coincidence, I might add).Comparing world outlook is pointless because we don’t know all the circumstances anywhere else, and some of us don’t care. Maybe those other places don’t have weasels like Lie-bermann, or a batshit crazy political party being treated like real opposition, but America does. What the hell do we do? Pack up our shit and go home because our collective political egos got pricked, or do we come back harder.I know it looks hopeless, but no more of this “scrap everything” without including ourselves. None of the Negative Nancies bandying about accusations and invective aimed at this caucas represent me. Shit, I voted for Obama and the Dems, too. You people aren’t special in that regard, so stop trying to own entire situation just because you blog. I say the Dems are doing exactly what I’d anticipated. That statement goes double for many of the drama queens I see attempting to suppress voter turnout next year as anticipated with their arcane grasp of “teh ishoes” and vehement defenses of finicky behavior.

It is literally nauseating to watch otherwise reasonable and intelligent people embarrass themselves with their endless apologies for this man.No more nauseating than hearing that someone who claims to be a progressive will be voting for Sarah Palin in ’12. Genius move there, dude.

Greenwald’s piece is right on the money.Bob – total fearmongering on your part. Complete kneejerk, chicken little fearmongering.Oh noes! We CAN’T EVER get a better bill than this for GENERATIONS! Wahhhh!It’s not reality in any way. It’s a scare tactic worthy of your book.

Sir Allen, the troll, come here to lecture Obama on the nauseating effect of an “otherwise reasonable and intelligent” individual doing things unbecoming. I’d never include Sir Allen in the company of the most vocal progressive demi-activists, especially when the “Obama’s a con man” claim that was placed in many a Pete PUMA’s harridan screed is typed within one of his redundant comments.Two can play the game those of Sir Allen the troll’s ilk choose to play…STOP WITH THE GOD-FORSAKEN SCREEDS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT “SELLING OUT,” “BEING DUMB,” BEING A PUPPET” OR ALL OF THE ABOVE.Those who claim I’m “apologizing” for President Obama are dead wrong, and will read why, if they can explain how they aren’t just as guilty, yet much dumber than the Swindler-in-Chief.Explain your own stupidity before committing to authoring yet another screechy memo to everyone that you no longer like Obama, ok, demi-activists.YOU FUCKED UP, TOO, IF YOU’RE TOO DENSE TO FIGURE THE SHIT OUT!SLOW YOUR GOD-DAMNED ROLLS!

Oh yeah, Allen, voting republican will surely mean you will not be made a fool of. No, I mean, sure it was repubs who deregulated to the point of a nearly global financial collapse; it was repubs who trained and armed Osama Bin Ladin; repubs who spied on their own people, who vetoed health care for children (which Obama signed into law), repubs who favored big oil over changes toward sustainable energy which would have lessened our dependence on foreign energy…but no, you’re right, it was of course Obama who made fool out of you forcing you in all your shock and horror to vote republican. I don’t doubt your claim to have been a fool of because something sure made you one.

Hey, everybody!Sir Allen’s going to vote for “worthless scumbags” in 2012 because “worthless scumbags” voted in recently are being “worthless scumbags.”Did it ever occur to him just how “worthless” and scum-ridden he is himself?Probably not. See, he’s got a keyboard and many, many bright ideas.Oh, and Lee, the shit ain’t gonna happen – EVER!Scrap this and kiss your platform goodbye. Go chill with Palin. See, she doesn’t like the bill on instinct, so perhaps you can educate her on what she’s actually opposing to make it so she doesn’t sound like the dummies waiting for her at “bus stops.”

Sorry but, there is no retreat here. That’s the way a pussy would handle things. I prefer to fight on. While I’m not thrilled with this bill I do understand that Congress writes legislation and the President signs it. The President could literally bring in congress members and curse them out but, he’s still not allowed to write legislation. So, congress could still screw him over. I suspect that watching congress at work or, the lack there of is one of the main reasons Obama wanted to leave the Senate. They’re not a real functioning body.I’ll wait to see if after they pass this shit they move in Janurary to reconciliation to add a public option. While the Medicare buy in would be nice, I’m only 49 so it wouldn’t do anything for me. Reconciliation must be done at the beginning of the year for budgetary reasons and a public option could be added then. We should fight on. I’m never going to give up. I’m much too pissed off to let dicks like Liberman and the rest of the conservadems off. I’m also looking forward to watching the tear filled concession speeches of those up for reelection next year.

Yes, Allen has no problem with the Dems acting like ‘Cons and/or vice/versa. See, he said as much this past weekend when he claimed that Dems were channeling ‘Cons predilections for marching in lock-step.He’s put himself into a rhetorical box and thinks no one here will recall the fact.Problem is, I do recall the fact.

What’s the Bill proposing Lexa? Having us spend $1 Trillion to force all americans to buy private or public insurance? ( those with pre-conditions too ) Brilliant! Fine the bastrids if they don’t!

By the way, the one thing Greenwald doesn’t explain is how the administration and Congress expect to get reelected if the majority of Americans are pissed off that there is no public option and that mandate is still in? If this was their intention all along, were they also planning to piss off their base and all but guarantee low turn out for the Dems? This helps them how? This is the part that makes no sense. Sorry Glen!

The Palin thing is what I said in my recent HuffPost piece – more fearmongering.It’s a way of keeping people in lockstep.Look – I KNEW Bob would support any piece of shit that the Obama administration shoved down his throat. It was like pulling teeth to get him to say the trigger might not be acceptable to him.And of course – no trigger and Bob still supports it.Because he’d AFRAID to fight for what he actually believes in. He’s afraid – like most of you here – to say “No. This bill isn’t at all what I voted for.”Did you notice that Lieberman won by NOT compromising? Did Rahm say “Give Russ Feingold what he wants!”NO – YOU lost health reform by accepting every compromise and acting like weak scared losers afraid to ask for what you really want.

Stranahan:>>>>Bob – total fearmongering on your part. Complete kneejerk, chicken little fearmongering.Here’s Lee: I bet I can bait Bob to respond by throwing the subject of his book in his face!This isn’t fear-mongering, Lee. History proves my analysis.Your utter ignorance to the politics of healthcare reform is staggering. Do you expect, what? The president to spend another year on this? How would that work, exactly, in a midterm year? An announcement at the SOTU? Then where? A Finance Committee bill? Then what?

Its quite telling that a great deal of people’s retorts to “kill the bill” criticisms turn out to be nothing but petulant hissy fits and invective. That’s probably the tactic that I’d use too, because there isn’t really a coherent argument to be made against more lives being saved.As for Glenn Greenwald, I know that he is one of the “left’s sacred cows”(Terminology lifted from Oliver Willis) – but he can really go fuck himself. Not including real impediments to the process like republican obstructionism, Joe Lieberman, and conservadems in his hamfistedly clumsy article is just another example of his penchant for convenient omissions in the name of a hit piece. But at the least the people who masturbate to his articles have something in common with Greenwald, they both cowardly characterize anyone who disagrees with them as Obama worshipers.

Uh, “Jonah,” you may have me confused with one of the demi-activists that will argue the merits of this bill with an obvious troll, but I am not.I’m simply here asking you where do you figure in all your invectives aimed at people that were voted into power.I’ve already informed you that ANY attempt to change the subject off of your own participation will fail. No one hoodwinked you into supporting anyone, if you have…By the way, who’d you vote for in the last presidential election. Refresh my memory now, so that it can be established within your laughable attempts to talk down to me in this here thread.Do not attempt to change the subject again, as I’m hip to that. You’ve argued with many here regarding your opinion on the bill, but you’ve yet to broach the subject of your participation for the man your demonizing. I thought I’d try something, you know, different.Have at it, troll.

It is to laugh…Lee, quite frankly, I don’t read your pieces.Haahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!Sorry!

Lexaburn,Is spending an additional $1 Trillion to force all americans to buy private or public insurance a sensible solution to you? Just answer the question and quit accusing me of “broaching” the subject. And last I knew, voting was a private issue. What’s with your demand for my voting preferences? You approve of privacy, is that longer cool? Are you a profiler?

Stranahan:>>>>>Because he’d AFRAID to fight for what he actually believes in.Oh bite me.To the extent that a blogger “fights,” I spent most of this year so far fighting for strong reform and the public option, Lee. Your problem is that you think the only way to fight is to “kill the bill.”Look through my archives. In fact, I sent you a list via email the other day in which I listed the all parts of the bill that I’ve publicly objected to. But you predictably ignored it all, just like always, because the only way you’ll ever accept my “fighting” is if I joined you in your stubborn, repetitive, delusional, ignoramus, attention-trolling, foot-shooting rants.

Fearmongering occurs when someone creates a false scenario (i.e., lies) to achieve a political outcome. There’s nothing false about Cesca’s speculation. He’s truly afraid of what might happen if HCR doesn’t pass, and so am I.Yes, insurers will continue to gouge most of us if this bill passes (nobody’s calling anybody a fearmonger for pointing that out). But insurers will continue to gouge us if this bill doesn’t pass.The Senate bill provides benefits to the poor (Medicaid expansion and subsidies) and to those with pre-existing conditions (no denials, community rating) that are very real. So, I don’t plan to drop support when millions of others will benefit significantly, even though I might not.As Cesca indicated, with this legislation out of the way, the distractions will be eliminated, creating a direct path to opening Medicare to everybody (screw the public option) via reconciliation (i.e., we want it now). So, let’s pass this bill, and then the day after Obama signs it, unite behind Medicare for all. The 5-year sunset that gives some people pause is actually something that should scare ConservaDems and Republicans. Once in place, it’s a political winner.GO!

Rox, that’s the thing that’s had me a bit confused as well. It seems like this is going to make the 2010 midterm that much more damaging to Dems not to mention re-election in 2012. I don’t feel I’m qualified to say this is what Obama or anyone else wanted from the beginning necessarily but I readily concede that if he wanted something more, he would have fought for it. I do agree with Greenwald on some points including where he points out the president has powers of influence whether the branches are separate or not.The most base of those influences is telling a senator the party and the president will not back them in their next election. His influence easily stretches in a 100 different directions that are not covered in civics lessons.Still, the contradiction exists, I don’t see how wanting this was a good political strategy if it was, and I don’t see how not fighting for more was a good political strategy if he wanted more. The bill aside, this whole episode just makes democrats look weak and feckless. I’ll take that over a republican any day, though. How sad.

“Jonah” is still trying to argue with me about the bill, despite the fact that I’ve never broached the subject. Typical tactic of a troll that cannot think on his feet. Sean Vannity would be proud.No one here has EVER heard my opinion on this health bill in any capacity. I’m voicing my support for the efforts of the caucus, nothing more. As I’ve stated, I know the true stakes. Sir Allen the troll is promoting voting in “worthless scumbag” Republicons, and the record contained within the skull of “Jonah” is skipping on the same redundant track, despite the fact that I’m dancing to a different tune.

Bob – you rant plenty.I know you were in favor of the public option – right up to the point it was dropped off a cliff by the White House. Then, not so much. At that point, you seem to have forgotten WHY the PO was important and all the rants you made about the extortion racket of private insurance.I know you know the arguments. That’s what is so frustrating about you. You know better.

Shit, I’m invading “Jonah’s” privacy now!I feel like I’m committing a crime for attempting to establish who’s who and what’s what here.Actually, I do profiles occasionally for a living.Are you feeling like a perp, troll?

I will not only NOT vote Democrat, I am voting Republican. I don’t like being made a fool of. Fuck these worthless scumbags.

Allen Frederick: You aren’t fooling anyone. You’ve never vote for a Democrat to begin with.But go ahead and vote for Republicans. THAT’LL show ‘em!

Stranahan,Your comment seems to suggest that supporting the Senate bill sans the PO is equivalent to opposing the PO. If so, then your argument is a non sequitur.

Let me ask: who here has any shame when informing us who they have or will vote for here in this thread?Now I know it’s not Sir Allen, since he’s informed us all of who he plans on voting for without our asking (since we just HAD to know).Who else?

Lee, we all wanted the PO, hell most of us want single payer. The reality is that there are 41 republicans and they all have pledged to filibuster any public option of any kind. This will not happen through the normal process.Reconciliation is the only way to get it now and that’s not out of the realm of possibility. I think the best course of action is to pass the current bill and then get the public option through reconciliation.As far as this being a corporate giveaway, I don’t like it any more than anyone else does, but this is America.And Greenwald is a total piece of garbage. I tortured myself reading that “article” if you can call it that. He claims at least two times that there is “overwhelming evidence” that Obama never wanted the public option in the first place. And yet he never presents any evidence or even an argument as to why that’s true. But hey, this is capitalism and he’s collecting his paycheck by kowtowing to the Lee’s and Allen’s of the world…

If the democrats offered a really good bill, po, medicare enhancement, reforms, etc and the opposition had to filibuster, how would that play out on election day? Would people say the dems are weak and couldn’t pass a bill or would they blame the republicans and droopy face? And when is the last time a senator actually filibustered?

Let me ask: who here has any shame when informing us who they have or will vote for here in this thread?

Well, I’m moderately ashamed of voting for John Anderson in ’80, in an attempt to send a message about the need for a third party. But other than that, no.

All that we’ve seen over the last week is that there is a need for progressive Democratic Senators. Clearly we all thought we needed a majority and a Democratic President who wants the system to change. Well, we didn’t get that did we. We got a MINO (majority in name only). What we now see is that we actually have more work to do not only on health reform but on electing people that understand the needs and how to fill them.I’m with Bob on the pass this and keep working. Target the hell out of the obstructionists. Boo them off the stage, campaign against them. Find new people to replace them and let them know we are doing it. The Senate is a big ship and turns slowly in the harbor, be a tug and grunt out some work. If we relent either by killing the bill or letting it pass with no follow up, then we’ll have the net effect letting the Republicans have a place to stand on saying their obstruction actually helped prevent a worse health reform effort. We can keep the pressure up and still get to the goal.The Congress thinks this will be over after a vote. Don’t let that happen. We can hammer harder than ever and use re-election as the fulcrum of our outrage. And if many of you don’t want to pay a dime to the Health Care Mafia, don’t. Be arrested and let the judges know that you are a political prisoner.

Alan, I’m talking more recent…like not four year AFTER I was born. The last decade, for example.

History is important Lex.

Absolutely, Alan.I’d venture to say that history is as important as context.

“fearmongering”, Lee? It’s not if it’s true. And if you’re saying that it’s not true, then you’re saying that if this bill is rejected outright then another health-care reform bill – one that gives Lee Stranahan everything he wants RIGHT GODDAMNED NOW and that will somehow have a better chance of passing than this one – will be coming down the chute shortly. I don’t think that that’s going to happen, which is why I agree with Bob.”NO – YOU lost health reform by accepting every compromise and acting like weak scared losers afraid to ask for what you really want.”Did we not ask? Did we not phone our representatives in government? Did we not rally outside legislature buildings? *I* did. I guess you didn’t, Lee. No, you sniped from the sidelines as republicans and insurance companies undermined our efforts.We asked, Lee. The reality that we’re faced with is this is what we got in response. I (and, I guess, Bob, and a lot of other people here) am in favor of taking it, because we know that if we hadn’t asked, we’d have gotten nothing – which is exactly what we’ll have if you get your way.

Den of Lions? LMAO Lexa, you’re a flippin cub.I am a registered Independent. I have not voted in a Presidential election since 1992.I am anti-big government. I guess my question was just a little to tough for you.I make $98,000 a year. I pay out about half of that through federal state and local property and sales taxes and fees.Do you think I believe they deserve all of that ?

If you don’t vote Jonah, then you deserve having it taken from you.

Wow, took you long enough, idiot ‘Con-troll…Cub or no, you’re still an idiot ‘Con-troll.And what’s this? Oh, you’re a registered “Independent,” too. I’m proud of you.Not that I give a shit about the reasons you’ve chosen to follow the path of the coward and not participated in the voting process, but why did you feel the need to inform me of your aversion to “big government”? See, I was already aware that you were when you began touting “tort reforms.”Oh, and now you want to compare earnings like every other ‘Con-troll. How cute!I make three quarters of that, pay my fair share, and you won’t here me bitching about it to any “liberal” within earshot in an attempt to play victim.Hey, go revolt, why don’t you. By your vehemence, someone’s obviously ripping you off, not voting, yet coming here to play the fool isn’t getting you anywhere. So I propose you do something about your precious funds being purloined by “big government.”Seems to me that you’re the cub with that growl of yours, idiot ‘Con-troll.”Grrr, I’m not going to vote, but I’ll bitch about “big government” like an idiot.”Step off.

I live in NYS genius, do you think any vote other than Democrat really matters?Alan believes I deserve to have $45K taken from me each year?No wonder my blood pressure rises whenever I read all the contraian bullshit here.

As I have said repeatedly, “bring on the filibuster”. I am with uncle smokey on this one.Having said that, the criticism of Obama instead of the system of bribery is just totally childish and an advertisement of ignorance.Please stop. Argue with Bob about the substance of his posts but knock off the horse shit.I’m talking to you Lee and Allen. You are acting just like teabagger dicks. I think Allen has always been one.

Wowee-zowee, the parallels just keep coming. I live in NYC.I get 12-15k taken from me yearly. You wanna cookie?Oh, a cookie might spoil your blood pressure, along with my mocking you for being an irresponsible miser with a bigmouth.You done bitching?

Oh, and if you want to spare your heart, stop reading post besides your own, idiot ‘Con-troll.

130/90 is certainly not critical lexaburn.But I’m sure if I were you I’d be heading tothe ER.You a renter punk? Talk about being an irresponsible fool with a big mouth.Mirror.

Alan believes I deserve to have $45K taken from me each year?

Well, yeah. If you don’t vote then you have no right to complain about how your government is run and paid for. If you feel so strongly that your vote doesn’t count because of where you live, then move. Obviously there is something keeping you there that overrides your sense of being robbed – perhaps because your taxes actually contribute to making your home state worth living in.Try this – vote every opportunity you can. If there’s no one on the ballot you like, then write something in. After doing that a few times, then come back here and bitch about who’s running things. I have no respect for someone who’s only participation in the process is bitching and trying to tell others how stupid they are for who they voted for. It’s just plain lazy.

I am a renter. My place is actually quite nice. Not that that has ANYTHING to do with anything within this here convo, but I’ll indulge you in your redundant rhetorical attempts at a one-up.Oh, and I also vote in elections, so…uh, yeah, STFU with the flimsy retorts, craven, contrary, confounded ‘Con-troll. If that makes me the – what was it? – “punk,” and not you, so be it.Damn, if this “Jonah” buzzard isn’t going to take me through the kaleidoscope of idiot con-servative postures on the ‘Net.

Alan, you must understand that “Jonah” is entitled to his self-righteous indignation, as well as his being a victim of circumstance. You cannot just ask him to up and leave NY thinking he’ll be missed.

I do vote in local elections Alan. I’m a firm believer in keeping the majority of issues on a local basis, it provides more freedom from a controlling authority, and provides forums with people you can actually meet, and share viewpoints with. Big government is out of control. My apologies if you don’t share my viewpoint.

A dummy that hasn’t voted in damn-near a decade and a half is attempting to school me on politics like a fake-ass George Carlin.It’d be funny if it didn’t remind me of something proud scatterbrain Glenn Dreck would say in a rhetorical spat.

Hey Lex, buzz the fuck off azzhole.

Ah, he was for “not voting” after he was against “not voting.”See, it changes from each “liberal” he debates.

I doubt he would be missed leaving anywhere Lex.

Apparently when I said ‘Presidential’ election, lexabum’s brain burped.

Vote next time you want to bitch about our political processes and you’re being taxed to people mocking you, dumbazz.

I have 6 kids in NYS, it’s home.

Ah so I need to shut up. Typical fucked up piece of shit holier than though elitist PUNK.

Nah, I read what you posted, and the same application is apt, idiot ‘Con-troll.Con-servative mind tricks don’t work on me, “Jonah.”Try that tactic on one of the pet “Democrats” FOX “News” keeps in its media swine pig-pen.You don’t vote.Now I understand you meant for your little revelation to add some gravitas and machismo to your otherwise redundant comment regarding “big government,” but you’ve failed in that endeavor. Try something else, not that it’ll matter now.

My opinion should be pretty clear by now. I’ll take Reality over Ideology. If healthcare reform, any reform, isnt passed now then it wont be passed at all.If loony progressives think outright killing the bill will gain them anything, then they’re just a stupid as the far-right.Even if you dont personally approve of every move Obama makes, that doesnt change the fact that he is the best chance progressives have right now to achieve some of their long term goals.Spitefully opposing him at every turn just for not pleasing you will not gain you any creed or clout. Your irrational voice will easily be ignored while independent voters keep going his way.

You’re hiding behind your children now?I don’t care if you have six fingers on your left hand, idiot ‘Con-troll, it has nothing to do with your not voting in – oh, “presidential elections.”Not that I don’t see your little revelation as the rhetorical red herring that it is, idiot ‘Con-troll. I’m just indulging you until you hit your next rhetorical snag, which will be soon, what, with your continuing to engage in this debate now that you’ve exhausted the “Independent” angle.

Lex, you come across as a fascist, profiling, potentially racist bigot, that wishes to censor other Americans you deem to be politically incorrect.I despise individuals such as yourself.Hopefully you’ll learn a few things and awaken to reality before it’s too late.

I do vote in local elections Alan. I’m a firm believer in keeping the majority of issues on a local basis, it provides more freedom from a controlling authority, and provides forums with people you can actually meet, and share viewpoints with. Big government is out of control. My apologies if you don’t share my viewpoint.

Let me see if I have this right then. You disagree with big government, so you choose not to participate in those elections. By doing so, you abdicate your right to have any say-so in how that government is run and paid for. You are taking a stand on principle, and pay for it with your tax dollars. Admirable.You do participate in local politics, yet you still complain about how much you pay in local and state taxes. Are you not getting all the services you think you deserve? Maybe you need to do more in your community so your neighbors will appreciate your position. You could even run for office yourself.I’m still confused. Why do you think anyone here should pay attention to your opnions on this topic?

You ask WHY I STAY IN NEW YORK asshole. I answered you fucked up forum flunky.

No need to pay attention to me Alan.This endeavor is useless, similar to what occurs in the federal government.

Uh-oh, I’m “elitist” now, too.So, per your assertion, I’m a twinkly intellectual liberal punk that rents a FABULOUS apartment. The fact that I’m taxed 10% of my yearly earnings, while indulging in mocking con-servative nitwits on Internet forums makes me an “elitist.”The fact that I vote in “presidential elections” makes me cower in fear of the Mike Brady in NYS that hasn’t voted in one seventeen years.Got it.

I think there’s supposed to be a “facist”, “racist”, and “bigot” sprinkled in there to Lex. Please keep up.

>>I have 6 kidsPosted by: Jonah Barcelona [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 16, 2009 2:39 PMSpaghetti Monster help us.

>>Lex, you come across as a fascist, profiling, potentially racist bigotPosted by: Jonah Barcelona [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 16, 2009 2:48 PMYeah, Lex. Bet you hate them negroes. Heh.

Damn, the idiot ‘Con-troll is putting me in Obama’s category with the “fascist” bullshit.See, the fact that I’m here suffering his con-servative idiot rage is proof that I’m not “censoring” anyone. Oh, the fact that I’m not the webmaster permits me from committing to such an action, as well. That fact may, in fact, eldude poor “Jonah,” whose con-servative nitwit wiring has gone haywire at this point.He also feels the need to inform me that he “despises” me, as if his derision has any standing on my existence.Oh, woe poor deluded, dumbazzed con-servative nitwit.I exist, therefore he has something to “despise.”He just wants to not vote or pay taxes, everyone. He doesn’t want to “despise” anyone, really.It’s just the “liberals” like myself that upset him so, so much.I bet he’s crying a river as we post.

pssssst, Jonah, Lexy is one of them. So, yeah, I’m sure Lexy=racist.

Sorry, Lexy, just thought I’d butt in. Keep skewering.

Yeah, Jane, “they” have all had it easy, what, with their welfare…and commercial endorsements and whatnot.Not to mention the access to hookers.

@ Lexaburn – I dub thee “troll-slayer.” Seriously though, thanks for responding to these asshats so I don’t have to. It’s bad for my blood pressure, and I’m not insured.@ Drummer Doug – I just couldn’t let the “Life of Brian” reference go un-commented on. Hahahahahahahaha. I like the connection.@ Bob – I like the post, but it’s even worse than you’ve said:>>>But killing the bill will only bring temporary satisfaction in knowing that progressives really showed ‘em!Nah…actually I’m pretty certain there wouldn’t even be temporary satisfaction. Once the MSM got ahold of the fact that democrats weren’t able to pass a bill of any kind, and that part of the reason was liberal in-fighting….Good Lord, the narrative of liberal ineptitude, inability to govern, Obama is a failure, etc., would be instantaneous, and it would last forever.

Not to boast, but I take pride in being “one of them” that boils the blood of an idiot ‘Con-troll like “Jonah” Bologna.”

Not to boast, but I take pride in being “one of them” that boils the blood of an idiot ‘Con-troll like “Jonah” Bologna.”

Boast all you want Lex, you’re good at it. I enjoyed the show.

Hi roject8 (waves from across town)!It’s like a bar brawl in here. If Jonah has run away, there’s still Lee on another thread somewhere.

Lee Stranahan strikes me as a misguided demi-activist that ignores his participation in our current predicament in order to foment rage directed at President Obama solely. His reasons, I can only guess at, and I’m not going to trouble myself. I choose not to lambaste well-meaning individuals that choose to revel in surreality.

Heh. Good point. Don’t waste it. Yeah, he backed Obama when there was a worse evil in the WH, but now he lacks a windmill. He’s made Obama his new windmill. Also, Bob. Taking bets on when he’ll tilt toward Eskow and FDL.

I’m a registered Independent.I’m not certain how you get conservative out of that.I believe in freedom and liberty, and the persuti of happiness.And what is ‘one of them’? a negro?”I exist, therefore he has something to “despise”"Are you on synthetic pharmaceuticals punk?You claiming only non-negros are racist?Isn’t that some more nonsense.

Hey Jane! (*Waves back like a total dork*)Yeah, you’re right, it’s been like this for the past couple weeks or so. New trolls popping up left and right, and liberal infighting like I’ve never seen before (and I’m typically an instigator, so I’ve seen/taken part in my fair share of bickering). It’s really been ratcheted up a notch lately though.Regarding Lee…I’m having a tough time pinning down his motivations as well. Honestly, I think he was really hoping for single-payer, and that it irked him that it was never even on the table. After that I’m not sure there’s anything Obama could’ve done that would have resulted in Lee not thinking he is a corporate sell-out. Lee pops in to say “told you so” every so often, but never follows up when people ask what should have been done differently or ask him a question along the lines of “Okay; what’s your bright idea for getting a substantive healthcare reform bill passed?” Lately there’s been very little substance; just a whole lotta sniping.And I agree with Alan – Lex, you’re quite good at wrecking the shit of trolls / uninformed republicans (it’s tough to tell them apart sometimes…and that’s not a joke). The funny thing is, I seem to remember having an extended argument with you around election time, just a couple months after I started visiting this site regularly. It was over some really stupid shit – I think it was something about John Mccain’s time as a POW. I’ve gotta say, it’s more fun being a spectator than actually arguing with you (even though I was totally right

Hey Roger, how is it Lexabum has wrecked me?You like his use of exquisitely verbose verbiage?Lex is a twisted young metrosexual who’s probablynever cut a blade of grass or planted a seed in his life, yet claims inherent expertise.Claims to only pay 10% in taxes on a 75K salary.Yeah, this is complete bullshit. A lie.He more likely takes more than he pays, like50% of the new dependence nation.(I am the one who’s totally right

NO – YOU lost health reform by accepting every compromise and acting like weak scared losers afraid to ask for what you really want.Goddammit, Lee, sometimes you can be such a dick. WE lost health reform? And may I ask what you did to WIN it? You come here and keep up the “See, I told you” routine but never once offered a solution or pushed an idea, just nothing but crying and whining about corporatist sellouts and shitting in your pants.And what’s really fucking frustrating is that you complain about not having health insurance because of your pre-existing diabetes, yet you want to kill the bill that allows you the opportunity to get that insurance. I don’t understand you.

Haha…what part of “*ignores troll*” does this guy not understand?:)

“you complain about not having health insurance because of your pre-existing diabetes, yet you want to kill the bill that allows you the opportunity to get that insurance”Carl, I keep thinking the same thing and I don’t want to presume anything about Lee’s reasons, but after reading his stuff for the last year or so it comes across as if he wants his health care taken care of for free. I too want that for everyone….higher taxes so everyone is covered, wages go up since employers don’t have to buy it….that’s great, but I’m not thinking about myself because I have good insurance. He sounds like he’s only thinking about himself. No wonder he doesn’t want this to pass, he’s scared to death he’ll have to buy private insurance, even if it’s cheaper than he could get it now. I don’t blame him but everything he says seems to come from that point of view.

Don’t kid yourself. No public option will be inserted in conference.The only way this bill becomes anywhere near acceptable, is when the mandates get taken out, and the loopholes get closed. This should be the focus.

“The only way this bill becomes anywhere near acceptable, is when the mandates get taken out,…”

Mandates would actually increase our chances for further reform. With all Americans vested, insurance either must be affordable or there’s a continuing backlash against insurers.Also, passing this bill without mandates will drive up insurer costs and our premiums even more. With mandates, premiums from the healthiest among us will offset costs arising of insuring the least healthy among. No mandates, no premiums from the those whose costs would be low, would result in even higher premiums for those of us who maintain coverage.Mandates will keep premiums lower than they otherwise would be. Want proof? Read the last paragraph on page 1 of the following document written by Jonathan Gruber at MIT: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/Gruber%20House%20nongroup%20premium%20analysis%2011-2.doc.

I’m not certain how you get conservative out of that.Stupid is as stupid does. Besides “I can’t be conservative; I’m independent,” is a ridiculously illogical statement. Which is another sign of a conservative.

I see “Jonah” Bologna is blasting me because I’ve never been “Beaver” Cleaver doing chores around the neighborhood for milk money now. Shit, before I was just Alec Baldwin telling off a con-servative dum-dum.First off, I said I make “three quarters” of the big number you doled out in your own bullshit. That is not an exact number. I’m not going to give out my financial statement in some dick-measuring contest with an ignorant ‘Con-troll like you, you moron. The hell you think this is – FBN? Seriously, you shit is tired, troll.As if you weren’t ready to rely on the “hasn’t done real work a day in his life” bullshit I anticipated you would. The “metrosexual” jab came out of the blue, and I’m sure you’re pulling that term out of your ass in an attempt at hip lingo without knowing how to apply it correctly.Why does the odd con-servative troll always feel the need to dole out 90% personal details in order to flame someone “intellectual,” yet you ask them a simple question like, say, who’d you vote for, they either make up a lie, or claim you’re invading their privacy like ninnies?Any angle you take in your asinine screeds, you still come out the idiot here bragging about how you don’t vote in presidential elections since 1992. Not that I’m preventing myself from viewing that revelation of your’n as a lie you gave so you won’t have to submit to the fact that you have voted for three losers, and an incompetent boob that fucked up everything he touched BEFORE he was given the WH as a present from his father’s friends in the USSC and damn near fucked up the entire world.I bet you want to tell me I’m taking money out of your pockets, right, idiot ‘Con-troll? It’s what all you con-servative cranks say before and after you make yourselves look stupid in online forums.I tell you, ALL the dopey con-servatives online that can’t debate worth a damn have incomes over $80,000, feel they’re being screwed by “big government,” and can’t tell you who they voted for in the last three presidential elections. Shit, they’re like Smurfs, where you can’t tell on apart until they commit to their caricatures. Shit, even then the caricature fitting them is “Impudent-con-servative-dork-dummy Smurf.”Ridicule this “Jonah” clown or ignore the scrub.My goodness, the humanity…

For the record, only an idiot ‘Con-troll abdicates his right to vote so he can play a pitiful miser wretch before people mocking him a decade later, you bonehead.”Jonah,” you’ve lost the privilege of crying “fascist” when so-called “liberals” berate you for being an idiot, ya self-righteous simpleton.Kindly STFU and cease misapplying political terms you’ve read off a cotton candy box given out at a Pit-Tea Party last summer.

The “metrosexual” jab came out of the blue, and I’m sure you’re pulling that term out of your ass in an attempt at hip lingo without knowing how to apply it correctly.No, it’s because he’s too chickenshit to use synonyms for “faygeleh”.

Nah, I’m sure he used it as an attempt to one-up my “verbose verbiage” (ha!) i.e. colorful putdowns.Is this clown kidding me with that bullshit?I tell you, all the con-servatives I encounter online commit to being macho-wacho ninnies, insulting my manhood in some way after awhile. It’s supposed to make me feel bad or something, not amuse me like all the other vitriolic mumbo-jumbo leaving their peabrains.

Lexabum, there’ve been 4, FOUR presidential elections since 1992. I’ll STFU when you have the balls to up make me punk. I pay my taxes, I have a say in where they are used. You wish to take away that right of free speech because I don’t vote for any of these puppets? Grow the fuck chump. BTW, love your berating skills, they’re better than mine. You shoul;d be proud, but then most liberals know how to belittle and berate human being they deem inferior.

“Jonah” Bologna…First off, including GHWB (no second term) makes four, idiot ‘Con-troll. Guess the other two and the one that almost fucked up the world. One bears a last name that rhymes with what you are: a mole. You scat yesterday after the barrage overwhelmed you and your amusingly shrill taunts were scoffed at. You overexerted yourself creatively (“Metrosexual”? Really?), so you came back this morning with renewed vim and vigor (and glommed talking points you repeat over and over again in the lastest thread, I see).What, are we all supposed to be impressed with your diabolical web-browsing skills, idiot ‘Con-troll?Specifically telling you to STFU about anyone here being a “fascist” isn’t an invitation for your idiot brand of faux pugnacity, ya self-righteous ninny. What “balls” did it take to get your blood boiling yesterday? What effort was it at all for you to inform me that you “despised” me (as if I give a shit)? Your intellectual density is monolithic, yet your patience has the consistency of one-ply toilet tissue. You’re not a challenge in any respect, palooka. Quit patting yourself on the back before before you strain yourself.And would you kindly cease flaunting your supposed wealth like every other con-servative muttonhead “debating” politics online. From all your crying you DO NOT have a say where all your precious tax dollars are going, Uncle Pennybags. All you dummies do is bitch about how government robs you blind, how every system is fraught with corruption, how it is the con-servative philosophy that is sound. With each president that claims to follow the tenets you dolts lay out, they always manage to fuck something up, leaving you to claim how you didn’t support THAT part of their agenda, as if it mattered as you goosestepped with pride. It’s laughable watching you boneheads claim two quarters of the last GOPhuck-up’s policies, then conveniently claim that there were many things you disagreed with him on. What – the color of the tie he wore one day you forget right quick? “Independent,” my black ass? “codependent” is more like it. Half the shit we’re going through now has EVERYTHING to do with the party you now disavow wrecking havoc with our rights, all while planting political landmines for whomever followed in their footsteps. As your dumbassed reps talk about “job creation” next year, it will be hysterical watching their great plans boiling down to playing shrewish backseat driver to the “majority” (they rarely call it the Democratic majority, due to the pain it causes them).You go cry about someone stepping on your rights to someone that DOES NOT deal with overgrown brats all day long. Did I tell you I actually have a degree in Psychology, idiot? I have a steady gig, and I also occasionally do criminal profiles with my partners. I’m this )( close to paying off ALL my debts, and then I’m truly going to live. See, I’m one of the folks milquetoasts like yourself go to see when you’re going through a mid-life crisis? I’m not going to indulge any further because I’m not here to expound my accomplishments. I’m just letting you know who and/or what you are attempting to dress down with your piss-poor literary tactics, ok, square.Go back home to wherever you crawled from (I’m guessing you squirmed your way here by way of those insufferable HuffPo threads you ‘Con-trolls infiltrate after O’Reilly prompted you to years ago). Don’t come at me with this weakness in the form of yawn-inducing con-servative screeds that I’d wipe my ass with if it it were on paper. That’s if I weren’t afraid of catching whatever debilitated your thinking.

It’s your prerogative whether you vote or not, idiot ‘Con-troll. I’m just informing you that your little rhetorical tact failed in convincing me that you’re anything other than a conserva-mole attempting to be brave. I never gave a shit as to whom you actually voted for, I was just seeing whether you did.I’ve repeatedly informed you that mental switcheroos do not work on me, so the only “puppet” you need to worry about is the wailer waling about his not being able to stop his tax dollars being put into a faulty system. Worry about that guy that doesn’t vote in presidential elections, and feels adrift in NYS because it’s politically “blue.” Worry about the person whining about folks trying to take his right to free speech away after they post “STFU” during an online debate like like a fake-assed Scarlett O’Hara-type drama peddler. A dope that hides behind his children when he hits a rhetorical snag. One that offers backhanded compliments as a way of admitting defeat, and still attempts to play victim of circumstance. Whomever that guy may be worry about him, because he needs REAL help that HCR isn’t going to provide EVAR!!! Period, end of discussion.